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> I took an alternative and left home, educated myself, and turned myself into a halfway decent contributor to society. I really think the US still has a lot of ability to reward those who go after it even if that means becoming a carpenter and saving for 30 years to retire early.

> I understand our society is not ideal, but I just think those problems are going to take generations to fix. Why not take care of yourself and do your best to fix your own shit.

This is survivor bias. There are tons of people trying hard and working to be in a place where they can find an "alternative" to take, but are faced with structural impediments like under-resourced schools, poor family and community support structures, and incentive systems that encourage short term survival and gratification decisions over long term preparation.

The existence of some people who don't strive for personal progress doesn't absolve us of the obligation to improve opportunites for those who do strive - and that begins from early childhood. Severe hardship is not a virtue we should be imposing on people to test their mettle.

After all, very wealthy people don't remove support from their children if those children don't "make shit happen". In fact, they usually pour more resources into those children in order to motivate them (from drug treatment programs, to therapists, coaches, ...), and if that still doesn't work, they still provide for them financially.

It feels like you have no understanding of the underlying problem, honestly. There is a saying that everyone has heard that goes, If you are trying to outrun a bear, you don't have to be faster than the bear, you only have to be faster than your friend.

The bear, in this analogy, is the problem. It is society's problem. And the solution you propose for society is for everyone to run faster, but no one can run faster than a bear.

Maybe it is time instead to deal with the bear.

What a great analogy!

I think this is a great analogy to bridge the gap between individualistic vs systematic thinkers about US education and healthcare

I think you’re giving the commenter you’re responding to too hard of a time. From what I understand, all he’s saying is let’s tackle two problems at the same time. Let’s address the systemic problem but since that naturally takes a long time, let’s also work on personal accountability and meet at the “perfect” end where we excel at both. I agree with his/her take that it seems that with each passing generation, there seems to be less and less independence in addressing personal issues (even if they stem from systemic issues). At the end of the day, whether society helps or not, you are the only person that cares about your wellbeing the most. Let’s just do both simultaneously is all I’m saying.

> I just don't get why people sit on their asses and complain instead of getting out and making shit happen or at least trying to. I don't get the barely getting by mentality.

And you think loud conjecture and opinions will change that? It's all well and good to be a idle proponent of social darwinism, but it's in your benefit, as well as 'theirs', to have people around you that are fostered to their best potential. A government that provides the best breeding grounds for highly-skilled workers will win everyone a better economy, and tax revenue. Seems a no-brainer to provide great education, in the same way it's a no-brainer for a farmer to use fertilizer.

> I think the society we're growing into one that wants to absolve anyone of personal responsibility.

You're fighting a false enemy. Folks researching issues like this aren't trying to abolish personal responsibility, they're trying to figure out why some people do better than others.

Is it because of inherited wealth? Inherited genetic material? Random genetic mutations? Inherited behavioral social norms? Societal trends? Entrenched interests maintaining a particular structural hierarchy?

The big question is why do people act the way that they do. These are worthy questions worth asking. If an exact DNA replica of you was placed in a different situation and had wildly different outcomes, it would raise pretty interesting questions.

You shouldn't feel threatened by these questions, they won't discount your personal achievements. Instead they may shed light on what makes you you.

> I understand where you're coming from and I'm going to leave an unpopular opinion as a comment,

No, you aren't; victim blaming and denying the personal responsibility of those who create, maintain, and benefit from an unjust system for the unwarranted harms inflicted on others by that system is an extremely popular opinion on HN, and among economic elites generally.

You are certainly entitled to that opinion, but you aren't engaging in some kind of revolutionary act by voicing a standard elite defense of the status quo.

You sound like an exceptional person!

I don't want to live in a society that requires everyone to be as exceptional as you are in order to live comfortably.

Many people disagree with you, and want to live in a society where only exceptional people can live comfortably, and the rest of them live miserably. Many, many, many of the miserable people actually like it better this way, which is proven by their voting habits.

I think that it's hard to determine people's desires from voting habits. Voting is kind of a game, wouldn't you say? It's got teams and everything, almost like a spectator sport.

When asked directly, though, progressive policies (or whatever word you want to use here to mean "anti-misery") are very popular!

I can see why many people place feel that way. I agree that there should be some balance between collective and personal responsibility. I just think US society and politics has placed such a heavy emphasis on the individual for so long and that we'd be all better if we weren't so quick to blame each other but help each other out. I don't think anyone deserves to grow up with bad schools and yet that's the only option many people have.

I agree with your sentiment. I'm just too jaded to believe the government is capable to doing anything. I think I'm my best bet at staying alive and thriving.

And that I totally agree with. The government doesn't seem to be able to do squat at the moment. Just complete gridlock.

> too jaded to believe the government is capable to doing anything.

Disclosure both my parents worked for the government. I think that jadedness is due to relentless gas lighting by the over class.

Congratulations, you're an outlier. Do you think society will improve if we just hope hard enough more people turn out like you?

It won't, or it already would have. Like it or not, we have to structure society for the people we have, not the people we wish we had.

> I understand our society is not ideal, but I just think those problems are going to take generations to fix. Why not take care of yourself and do your best to fix your own shit.

When success is governed more by luck than effort, I'd imagine one might get tired of putting effort in forever with no results. "The floggings will continue until you succeed" is not a strategy for happiness at scale. American Exceptionalism is an incredibly toxic idea not supported by data.

> I just don't get why people sit on their asses and complain instead of getting out and making shit happen or at least trying to. I don't get the barely getting by mentality.

Because there are lots of folks working their asses off who are barely getting by. These people are not hard to find and talk to about their situations (at least, in my experience politically canvassing by foot).

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/americans-face-a-ris... (Americans face a rising tide of despair. We have a duty to act.)

https://www.jec.senate.gov/public/index.cfm/republicans/2019... (Long-Term Trends in Deaths of Despair)

https://time.com/5606411/millennials-deaths-of-despair/ (More Millennials Are Dying 'Deaths of Despair,' as Overdose and Suicide Rates Climb)

https://www.thebalance.com/income-inequality-in-america-3306... (Income Inequality in America: Causes of Income Inequality)

https://www.technologyreview.com/s/610395/if-youre-so-smart-... (If you’re so smart, why aren’t you rich? Turns out it’s just chance.)

It is a problem when people like you are the exception instead of the norm.

I am greatly offended by your post. I don't understand why people use the same excuses like survivorship bias over and over again when they are so obviously unfair and wrong. I don't understand why people need to prop up their own successes as something innate to them and their hard work while dismissing others who work just as hard but fail as "sitting on their asses complaining". I simply don't understand human ego and how it drives most people and causes them to elevate themselves in their minds while tearing others down. I don't understand how they can actually believe everyone else is just lazy or not as deserving.

I will be dead by end of year because I am broken in about every way and have no survivable path. When I was not broken and was a firefighter I was treated entirely differently by society and by individuals. I must be BRAVE and STRONG and GOOD and DESERVED my life and praise and whatever. I tried to be those things but they judged me on their ideas about me and my job and as long as those were "good" then I was a "good" and "deserving" person. I didn't get that job, a notoriously difficult field to get hired in, on my own. Sure I tried my best to prepare and be a good candidate, but luck and connections helped too as they do for anyone who succeeds despite their belief it's all them. No matter how "admirable" one's station seems to society nobody thrives alone and EVERYBODY deserves basic human needs and respect. Once I lost all of that life and "status" due to doctor inflicted disability a predictable downfall ensued because people are mostly all the same self serving personalities. There was a period of sympathy and promises of assistance to help me "get a life back". Then as systems and programs inexplicably denied my the help everyone was sure I deserved, and they were sure would be there for them when they needed it, and when my attempts to do MORE with LESS failed, people shifted their behavior towards me. Suddenly I was a threat to their egos and this their security in themselves. A threat to their own view of the just world and what they wanted to deny could happen to them.

As one would expect when that happens to you...when you lose your physical health...your mental health declines. It snowballs as your finances and relationships declines and disappear. No matter how hard you try or what SHOULD happen things keep falling. Everyone starts tearing you down and spending your energy for you in unrealistic ideas because they can't lose that way...they get to believe they could do it and they get to dismiss you and not feel guilty when you cannot because it's obviously your being lazy or not deserving it. Once in a blue moon someone offers you a much needed PIECE of the puzzle but since you are flying down the hill you cannot even keep a hold of that piece and it flies out of your hand and the person offering it usually gives you an exasperated tut like "well I tried you just didn't want it bad enough". You get angry because you KNOW it's possible to live and even thrive in some way if you could just have consistent help...but you know help isn't profitable so nobody is going to do that. You get MORE depressed. That depression is blamed for all your ills. You are blamed for people's advice failing. You are "sitting on your ass complaining" to everyone who doesn't realize how lucky they have been, how they could manage things when younger or with the help of society or others that people cannot manage when they are older, broken, broke, abused. Who think a drowning person can just "swim harder" because they need to believe they will be able to if they ever get caught in a riptide. This is soul crushing...because it happens over and over and over and you cannot even read things online anymore because you see people blaming, judging, denying policies that can help...and you know it's hopeless.

Think about that next time you get upset at people who didn't succeed like you did. Try to understand they wanted to live...wanted a future...just as bad as you did. Try to understand they don't deserve it any less than you and that you didn't do it on your own even if you think so. Try to understand we are human beings and not slights to you ego or proof that you are better or that anyone can do it. The world doesn't work like that and many good and decent people suffer and sink every day because instead of working together and helping it's all Thunderdome and ME ME ME...even more so in the USA where people have decided basic social protections are "theft" and "wrong" and since I cannot get to and stabilize in a caring first world nation I give up on humanity entirely. There are not enough people who don't live in ego for anything to change in time for me. Even this...will just "offend" people like that rather than change anything. It's venting of hopeless pressure and ultimately nobody really cares. Another empty rant of agonal breaths and the same false beliefs about victims and those suffering will just march on because I have learned with humans it's 99.9% all about the ego. That's one good thing about being rid of this life...send me to cat heaven because people suck and I don't want to be around them even in some afterlife.