I understand where you're coming from and I'm going to leave an unpopular opinion as a comment, but I think the society we're growing into one that wants to absolve anyone of personal responsibility. I understand that growing up in poor neighborhoods and shitty family situations makes it immensely more difficult to set yourself up for success, but I just think at some point you're responsible for your own person, not anyone else and not society.
I grew up in methland, appalachia and had countless crackhead friends and family. I didn't have any money and had to work starting at age 15. I think I'd be in my right to complain and want education to be fixed and my city to be improved so it'd be easy for me to be more successful.
I took an alternative and left home, educated myself, and turned myself into a halfway decent contributor to society. I really think the US still has a lot of ability to reward those who go after it even if that means becoming a carpenter and saving for 30 years to retire early.
I understand our society is not ideal, but I just think those problems are going to take generations to fix. Why not take care of yourself and do your best to fix your own shit.
As a disclaimer, I'm not writing this towards disabled people or others that need society's help. I'm 100% ok with helping in those situations. I'm talking about the average american who has their health and some direction over their destiny.
I just don't get why people sit on their asses and complain instead of getting out and making shit happen or at least trying to. I don't get the barely getting by mentality.
Disclosure both my parents worked for the government. I think that jadedness is due to relentless gas lighting by the over class.
When success is governed more by luck than effort, I'd imagine one might get tired of putting effort in forever with no results. "The floggings will continue until you succeed" is not a strategy for happiness at scale. American Exceptionalism is an incredibly toxic idea not supported by data.
> I just don't get why people sit on their asses and complain instead of getting out and making shit happen or at least trying to. I don't get the barely getting by mentality.
Because there are lots of folks working their asses off who are barely getting by. These people are not hard to find and talk to about their situations (at least, in my experience politically canvassing by foot).
https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/americans-face-a-ris... (Americans face a rising tide of despair. We have a duty to act.)
https://www.jec.senate.gov/public/index.cfm/republicans/2019... (Long-Term Trends in Deaths of Despair)
https://time.com/5606411/millennials-deaths-of-despair/ (More Millennials Are Dying 'Deaths of Despair,' as Overdose and Suicide Rates Climb)
https://www.thebalance.com/income-inequality-in-america-3306... (Income Inequality in America: Causes of Income Inequality)
https://www.technologyreview.com/s/610395/if-youre-so-smart-... (If you’re so smart, why aren’t you rich? Turns out it’s just chance.)
The bear, in this analogy, is the problem. It is society's problem. And the solution you propose for society is for everyone to run faster, but no one can run faster than a bear.
Maybe it is time instead to deal with the bear.
I think this is a great analogy to bridge the gap between individualistic vs systematic thinkers about US education and healthcare
It won't, or it already would have. Like it or not, we have to structure society for the people we have, not the people we wish we had.
> I understand our society is not ideal, but I just think those problems are going to take generations to fix. Why not take care of yourself and do your best to fix your own shit.
This is survivor bias. There are tons of people trying hard and working to be in a place where they can find an "alternative" to take, but are faced with structural impediments like under-resourced schools, poor family and community support structures, and incentive systems that encourage short term survival and gratification decisions over long term preparation.
The existence of some people who don't strive for personal progress doesn't absolve us of the obligation to improve opportunites for those who do strive - and that begins from early childhood. Severe hardship is not a virtue we should be imposing on people to test their mettle.
After all, very wealthy people don't remove support from their children if those children don't "make shit happen". In fact, they usually pour more resources into those children in order to motivate them (from drug treatment programs, to therapists, coaches, ...), and if that still doesn't work, they still provide for them financially.
And you think loud conjecture and opinions will change that? It's all well and good to be a idle proponent of social darwinism, but it's in your benefit, as well as 'theirs', to have people around you that are fostered to their best potential. A government that provides the best breeding grounds for highly-skilled workers will win everyone a better economy, and tax revenue. Seems a no-brainer to provide great education, in the same way it's a no-brainer for a farmer to use fertilizer.
I don't want to live in a society that requires everyone to be as exceptional as you are in order to live comfortably.
When asked directly, though, progressive policies (or whatever word you want to use here to mean "anti-misery") are very popular!
You're fighting a false enemy. Folks researching issues like this aren't trying to abolish personal responsibility, they're trying to figure out why some people do better than others.
Is it because of inherited wealth? Inherited genetic material? Random genetic mutations? Inherited behavioral social norms? Societal trends? Entrenched interests maintaining a particular structural hierarchy?
The big question is why do people act the way that they do. These are worthy questions worth asking. If an exact DNA replica of you was placed in a different situation and had wildly different outcomes, it would raise pretty interesting questions.
You shouldn't feel threatened by these questions, they won't discount your personal achievements. Instead they may shed light on what makes you you.
I will be dead by end of year because I am broken in about every way and have no survivable path. When I was not broken and was a firefighter I was treated entirely differently by society and by individuals. I must be BRAVE and STRONG and GOOD and DESERVED my life and praise and whatever. I tried to be those things but they judged me on their ideas about me and my job and as long as those were "good" then I was a "good" and "deserving" person. I didn't get that job, a notoriously difficult field to get hired in, on my own. Sure I tried my best to prepare and be a good candidate, but luck and connections helped too as they do for anyone who succeeds despite their belief it's all them. No matter how "admirable" one's station seems to society nobody thrives alone and EVERYBODY deserves basic human needs and respect. Once I lost all of that life and "status" due to doctor inflicted disability a predictable downfall ensued because people are mostly all the same self serving personalities. There was a period of sympathy and promises of assistance to help me "get a life back". Then as systems and programs inexplicably denied my the help everyone was sure I deserved, and they were sure would be there for them when they needed it, and when my attempts to do MORE with LESS failed, people shifted their behavior towards me. Suddenly I was a threat to their egos and this their security in themselves. A threat to their own view of the just world and what they wanted to deny could happen to them.
As one would expect when that happens to you...when you lose your physical health...your mental health declines. It snowballs as your finances and relationships declines and disappear. No matter how hard you try or what SHOULD happen things keep falling. Everyone starts tearing you down and spending your energy for you in unrealistic ideas because they can't lose that way...they get to believe they could do it and they get to dismiss you and not feel guilty when you cannot because it's obviously your being lazy or not deserving it. Once in a blue moon someone offers you a much needed PIECE of the puzzle but since you are flying down the hill you cannot even keep a hold of that piece and it flies out of your hand and the person offering it usually gives you an exasperated tut like "well I tried you just didn't want it bad enough". You get angry because you KNOW it's possible to live and even thrive in some way if you could just have consistent help...but you know help isn't profitable so nobody is going to do that. You get MORE depressed. That depression is blamed for all your ills. You are blamed for people's advice failing. You are "sitting on your ass complaining" to everyone who doesn't realize how lucky they have been, how they could manage things when younger or with the help of society or others that people cannot manage when they are older, broken, broke, abused. Who think a drowning person can just "swim harder" because they need to believe they will be able to if they ever get caught in a riptide. This is soul crushing...because it happens over and over and over and you cannot even read things online anymore because you see people blaming, judging, denying policies that can help...and you know it's hopeless.
Think about that next time you get upset at people who didn't succeed like you did. Try to understand they wanted to live...wanted a future...just as bad as you did. Try to understand they don't deserve it any less than you and that you didn't do it on your own even if you think so. Try to understand we are human beings and not slights to you ego or proof that you are better or that anyone can do it. The world doesn't work like that and many good and decent people suffer and sink every day because instead of working together and helping it's all Thunderdome and ME ME ME...even more so in the USA where people have decided basic social protections are "theft" and "wrong" and since I cannot get to and stabilize in a caring first world nation I give up on humanity entirely. There are not enough people who don't live in ego for anything to change in time for me. Even this...will just "offend" people like that rather than change anything. It's venting of hopeless pressure and ultimately nobody really cares. Another empty rant of agonal breaths and the same false beliefs about victims and those suffering will just march on because I have learned with humans it's 99.9% all about the ego. That's one good thing about being rid of this life...send me to cat heaven because people suck and I don't want to be around them even in some afterlife.
No, you aren't; victim blaming and denying the personal responsibility of those who create, maintain, and benefit from an unjust system for the unwarranted harms inflicted on others by that system is an extremely popular opinion on HN, and among economic elites generally.
You are certainly entitled to that opinion, but you aren't engaging in some kind of revolutionary act by voicing a standard elite defense of the status quo.
Pointing this out is off topic, but I'd like the community to get aware that this is what typically happens. Otherwise it feels bad to read the comments, and the mind starts to overgeneralize about it, e.g. "I can't believe that HN thinks X." HN doesn't "think" X; it is just the universal tendency to make objections and it's the same in both cases.
One could even call it the contrarian dialectic, but I suppose that's pretentious.
https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&qu...
The interesting thing is how obvious it is once you know what to look for, yet also how poorly understood it is. If it were understood, we wouldn't see so many comments of the form "I can't believe the comments here". Someone who's aware of the mechanics of objection wouldn't express themselves that way, because they'd know that their objection-to-the-objections is the same thing. I don't think this is bad, by the way; it's just that it comes from the structure of the forum and not from any of the specific topics people think it has to do with. The medium truly is the message. https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&qu...
We really need a system where people actually get opportunity to change careers and retrain instead of just being thrown away by companies as it’s happening now. I have seen a log n of perfectly capable but maybe older than 40 people being laid off without much advance warning and no opportunity to even try to adapt.
Companies throw people away and the whole country throws away whole regions when trends change.
I would suggest that the reason kids in rich neighborhoods turn out ok is not because their schools have more money but because their parents have set them up for success. I can say this confidently because my dad is in the military, and I've attended several years at a poor high school in Alabama where cheating and truancy was rampant.
See, here's the thing. People often greatly underestimate the role good parents have in producing good, contributing members of society. We like to pretend that everyone is born equal and that the reason some kids fail and other don't is because the public infrastructure they had access to was good or bad.
But I would wager that's only 10% of the issue. The other 90% of the issue is that all parents are on a spectrum. And it turns out that poor parents are at the end of the spectrum that sets up their kids for failure.
I totally get that it's not intentional; Nevertheless, they set bad examples to their kids (smoking, drinking, lotto), often times one parent (usually the male) is missing, they might not enforce school attendance/homework/chores, etc. Kids follow the example of their parents. If the parent is a single mom, pregnant at 14, smokes and drinks excessively, etc. chances are the kids are going to be the same way.
I am not convinced throwing money at schools is the solution. I think there needs to be some kind of mentorship between the poor and middle classes that essentially causes there to be better parents with each generation. Like temporary foster homes where poor kids can learn and observe how middle and upper class people do things.
Basically, I believe the ultimate solution to poverty is love - personal relationships with the poor. Actually making friends with poor people as a middle or upper class individual and helping lift them up a little. Money is part of the problem, yes, but my argument is that the importance of money is greatly overestimated in the poverty problem.
I'm not disputing your personal experience, but this is an anecdote :)
But, anecdotal evidence is still evidence, weak as it is. I'm sure there are others here who have experienced something similar which is partially why I took the time to type it up - to see if that is the case.
(OP has fixed typo, so below snark can be ignored:
And English is a really weird language, on top of that.
For example, "excepted" means almost the opposite of "accepted," but in most instances will be pronounced roughly the same way.)
Coupled with new belief in the effects of epigenetics, bad food and sleep becomes something that can pass down generationly, both in habit and in gene expression.
Finally, once you reach a certain age, structured education disappears, and most peoples continuous self improvement comes from newspapers and television news. As journalism has forgotten its duty and role in education and become almost exclusively about capturing attention and feeding lust for entertainment, the nightly news acts under a veil of appearing educational.
Context cannot be ignored.
I’ve experienced these toxic environments where good sleep and healthy food was almost impossible to obtain and it can be crippling.
I got a full-ride to university, but could not take full advantage of because of a toxic domestic environment and impoverished family.
I got to learn from smart professors and supportive friend which greatly improved my life because they helped me develop better learning and social skills. I’m using everything I learned to better my family and the immediate environment.
Good education is a powerful force for betterment. It’s troubling that access to opportunities like the I had one was based on luck.
Fortunately, educational opportunity has increased. Resources like Khan Academy and other MOOC platforms can help you get a top-notch education cheaply. Our society just need to make sure it’s accessible to those who need it most.
The "personal responsibility" line get touted around these conversations quite a bit. It's not so dissimilar from the "pull yourself up by your own bootstraps" line. Quite often by racists/racialists or wealthy classists.
Yes, people should be personally responsible and held responsible for their actions. And also yes, systemic problems are also problems that cannot be ignored or absolved by saying people should take personal responsibility for their actions.
Take crime, when the poor and disadvantaged find themselves in the US court system, oftentimes their crimes are punished more harshly than those from more well-to-do situations. That's not the fault of the poorer person, that's systemic.
You can say neither the rich nor poor person should have committed the crime (personal responsibility is a "good" thing) , but the fact that the rich person might get off or have a lighter sentence such as probation, isn't the fault of the poorer individual - that's where the systemic failures start to rear their ugly head.
Please note: I don't discount personal responsibility (quite the opposite) here at all - however I'm sure my comment will be met with criticism by those that beat the drum for "personal responsibility" as being the primary mitigating factor in all things around these types of topics.
Thank you
Yeah, for good reason: the career is terrible, so it shouldn't be a big surprise that no quality people want to go into it, and when someone good does get into it, they burn out quickly and leave. But government and society don't want to do anything about that.
Teachers in this country face lousy pay, uninterested, disrespectful, and sometimes violent students, occasional school mass shootings, incompetent coworkers and administration, etc. Why would a well-educated person want to go into this field?