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Comment by fermenflo | Hacker News Reader

No, USB-C is a step in the right direction. It's superior in every way imaginable to USB. It can handle almost every type of transfer (data/power), its orientation-agnostic, it's slim, etc. I could list the pros for days.

Having to deal with dongles for a couple years while the rest of the market catches up isn't a reason to push against the best port standard in decades.

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USB-C is not superior in every imaginable way. And at least as embodied as a Thunderbolt 3 carrier, there are at least two.

There is no such thing as a USB-C hub. The protocol doesn't support it. That's one really concrete way that USB-C is inferior. I think I heard rumors that the proposed replacement fixes that, but Thunderbolt 3+USB-C is inferior that way.

It's also easier to snap off. That's two. Yes, it's better in a lot of objective ways, but there are also non-imaginary ways in which it's a pretty substantial compromise.

Maybe we should do a longbet on whether you're willing to talk smack about T3 once T4 hardware comes out. Because I bet you will.

> There is no such thing as a USB-C hub.

I didn't believe you, then I went and checked.

https://www.cnet.com/news/usb-4-will-resurrect-those-useful-...

Apparently all the hubs that have multiple USB-C ports are running USB 2 over them, or you can just use them for power delivery.

I am suddenly very happy that none of my other devices except for my USB-C hub, actually uses USB-C, I'd be limited to the ports that came on the computer!

Thunderbolt docks can do it, they just run multiple USB controllers on board, one for each port, but indeed, it USB-C 3.1 as it stands today doesn't support hubs.

I had to stop for a second and look. I have a usb-c hub that outputs to gigabit and multiple usb 3.0 plugs.

A quick google search returns https://satechi.net/collections/usb-type-c/products/type-c-m... which isn't what I have, but it's more of the same.

My complaint about usb-c hubs, when I was looking for one a year ago is I couldn't find one that did 4k60, gigabit ethernet, and 2 or more usb 3.0 plugs. This has led me to plugging in two cables instead of one for years. If my monitor had a gigabit ethernet plug, I'd be set, because it outputs a bunch of usb (2) ports.

This is probably the best explanation available of this: https://www.bigmessowires.com/2019/05/19/explaining-4k-60hz-...

This explains a lot. Thanks!

Hopefully USB 4 will make it possible.

You have a dock, an adapter, a breakout box or whatever the cool kids are calling it.

A USB hub is just one USB port in and N out. There is no such thing for USB-c.

You can't even chain those adapters. The USB-c 'in' port that you plug power into? No data on that line. Just power.

And some of those adapters send the wrong voltage to USB-2 devices. Had a hell of a time with my keyboard and mouse until I started plugging the power directly into the computer.

But only 1 USB-C 3.1 plug!

I guess we'll have to wait another few years.

I can see why this all is though, the limitations are going to be insane.

A couple other links. Insane that no USB-C hubs exist.

https://superuser.com/q/1381139/122042

https://mjtsai.com/blog/2017/10/14/the-impossible-dream-of-u...

I so wanted to be wrong it's not even funny. Like, how the fuck did you break this and why don't I remember screaming and bonfires in the streets over this? It's bullshit!

The weirdest one is that I at least expected those 'hubs' that have the port breakouts for everything to at least be able to take data in through both ports, but that doesn't work either. You can only plug a power brick into the USB-c female port.

USB A was very easy to ruin as well. It might look strong but usually its just held on with a couple of solder joints which I found very prone to bend enough to break the device if it ever got an up/down force on it.

> There is no such thing as a USB-C hub. The protocol doesn't support it.

Did you read the protocol specification? (It's freely available, with no paywall or even login wall.) The protocol does support a USB-C hub. Actually protocols, since there are three separate protocols involved, each on its own set of wires: USB 2.0, USB 3.x, and USB-PD. Each of them has its own support for USB hubs. The hub support for USB 2.0 and USB 3.x is the same as in the older USB hubs with the USB-A and USB-B plugs and sockets; only USB-PD is new (and has long chapters on how power delivery works through hubs in several different scenarios).

The only gotcha is that Thunderbolt 3 does not support a USB 3.x hub (but this is fixed by its successor USB4); this is worked around by including a full PCIe USB 3.x host on the Thunderbolt 3 device, since Thunderbolt 3 can pass through PCIe and Displayport at the same time (USB4 adds USB 3.x to the passthrough).

I mostly agree with you, especially on devices like phones where there's a single port, but here, there's 4 ports. Even if you use it for charging and two displays, you can still manage to put one USB-A in there. If you really like symmetry, maybe two of each. Unfortunately, Apple's obsession with uniformity and clean design would never let them do such a thing, even if the diversity would be objectively better here.

I can't sum it up in any other way than to say it's a user-hostile decision.

They should at a minumum have included a few choice dongles with the system. (usb-c to usb-a, and maybe usb-c to HDMI)

Additionally, they should have completed the ecosystem too. a mac-to-mac upgrade requires a dizzying variety of dongles, where one firewire cable was all that was required in previous systems.

I still remember when the MBP included a VGA-DVI adapter and a remote control.

Yeah, we’ve been saying that for what, four years now? Time to face facts. Usb-A isn’t going anywhere.

Type-A has completely disappeared from my life and that of my family's.

Micro-USB is still clinging on but those will fade out within the next 2-3 years.

Additionally, four years is a laughably short period of time to measure Type-C's adoption, but even given that, I would love to see actual usage data for, say, American adults.

> Type-A has completely disappeared from my life and that of my family's.

I'm honestly surprised by this. I have eight different type A devices plugged into my PC right now[1] and I don't own a single type C device (and it's not that I've intentionally avoided it).

As for the rest of my family, I don't think any of them have computers that'd even have a Type C port. Mine has just one, and it's brand new.

[1] Keyboard, mouse, external audio interface, printer, scanner, iLok dongle, external HDD, flash drive.

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Edit: Valid point made in the replies that 50% of these could have their cables replaced to do USB-C at one end.

Cable could be replaced: External audio interface, printer, scanner, External HDD.

Cable not replaceable: Keyboard, mouse, iLok dongle, flash drive.

Those mostly aren't "type-A devices". The connector is not the protocol. Except for those physically integrated into a type-A connector, those are mostly USB-2/3 devices that generally ship by default with a cable that includes a type-A connector at one end and a type-B or mini/micro-B at the other.

I too have an external audio interface, a printer, scanner, and external HDD, and they are all connected via USB cables that have a type-C connector at one end and the relevant B subtype at the other. These are now cheap and ubiquitous. My keyboard is lightning to USB-C, and my mouse is bluetooth. As for flash drives, I buy the double-ended ones these days.

The adapters I still use are for an older U2F dongle that is physically integrated into a type-A connector, which is due for retirement later this year, and a Thunderbolt display.

So the writing isn't just on the wall for USB Type-A connectors in my household, they're basically gone.

As for what happens to all the cables with type-A connectors that shipped by default, those are in my travel kit for device charging off wall-warts or vehicles that often still have type-A sockets.

USB-A right now:

1. My keyboard

2. My mouse

3. My webcam

4. My headset

5. My BT Dongle (which my BT headset won't actually pair with, thus #4)

6. Wi-Fi adapter

7. Xbox 360 controller

Now that is my desktop, my laptop is USB-C, with a dock plugged into the port. Said dock only has 2 USB devices plugged in, wireless adapter for my Mouse/Keyboard, and my headset.

None of this counts the many USB-A charging cables. I have USB-A to Lightning, USB-A to Micro, and USB-A to USB-C, all currently in use. I also have a single USB-C to USB-C adapter.

Maybe we just have to accept that people have different usage profiles. Personally I don’t have a single USB peripheral that is USB-C beyond simply charging. But I have many many devices that are USB-A, micro USB, HDMI, etc. A laptop that has USB-C, USB-A, and HDMI is significantly more useful to me than one which only has USB-C. I own all the adapters but I don’t always remember to bring everything with me, so even given my multi hundred dollar investment in adapters I often have trouble connecting with things. And as far as replacing all my peripherals with USB-C peripherals, those tend to be more expensive, and also my desktop computer does not support USB-C so I would basically need a separate set of everything. USB-C is undoubtably a better port in many technical ways, but for practical purposes it really doesn’t hold up against the ports it replaced in real life.

Do you and your family exclusively use laptops and phones manufactured after 2017 without any external peripherals? Because it's still hard to find USB-C on anything else. Even some of Apple's own devices still cling to lightning.

Sure, some motherboards, peripherals, and displays have type-C ports, but they're still very much the exception.

I see it as a wealth level thing. People will still be buying $30 Canon printers at Walmart with USB-B ports and USB-A flash drives in 20 years. Not everyone buys their entire family the newest, most expensive hardware every 2 years. It'll be ages before USB-C and USB 3 hardware becomes as cheap as the massively produced USB-A/B and USB 2 hardware.

Luckily dongles/adapters are cheap.

A printer with a USB-B port can be plugged into a USB-C port. Only the cable needs to change, not the printer. After buying my Macbook with 4 USB-C ports I simply replaced the cables for the various devices, and I almost never need to use any adapter/dongle at all.

I actually do have a digital piano with Type-B, and use a B-to-C cable as well, no adapter needed.

> Type-A has completely disappeared from my life and that of my family's

This might be true for end users, but in my electronics work, I don't see even a single USB-C device around me, and I'm looking at about ~50 devices right now around my desk (dev boards/kits, logic analyzers, interfaces, accessories, microscopes, oscilloscopes, and other equipment).

USB-C only is perhaps fine on consumer laptops, but these are supposedly the more capable "Pro" machines, for, well, pros.

It's decidedly inferior in its lack of hubs. If you don't have enough USB-C ports, you're SOL (and given I have a 2-port macbook pro, I feel this acutely).

I've been using a macbook with one USB C port happily for a few years. When I need more ports, I use the multiport dongle:

https://www.apple.com/shop/product/MUF82AM/A/usb-c-digital-a...

What more do you need?

What if you have to plug two or three usb-c devices?

I have a usb-c monitor connection, and of course the usb-c charger - so any third device requires unplugging one of those. In my case that's a usb-c yubikey. That dongle gives me an hdmi port I can't use (HDMI on the 13" pro can't drive a 34" monitor) and a usb-a port I can't use (I was good and got usb-c perpherals!).

I like watching this from time to time, as it really resonates with me: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z58QrvVR7bE

As Steve Jobs says, you should start from the user experience and work backwards. Dongle hell is not a good user experience, especially when Apple's obsession with slimness is in part due to portability.

> Having to deal with dongles for a couple years while the rest of the market catches up isn't a reason to push against the best port standard in decades.

But why do I have to be the hostage here? I don't want to wait for "the rest of the market catches up", I want to get my work done, and my work requires plugging in lots of USB-A peripherals. The move to USB-C only was premature and trying to force the market using users as hostages shows incredible hubris.

god I hope this is satire

I'm about 70-30 on it being satire

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