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Comment by blhack | Hacker News Reader

It's hilarious to me that their own marketing image has two dongles plugged into the laptop so that the user can still use USB.

Apple please for the love of usability: please give me back USB. I AM the pro that you want to feature in every one of your marketing videos. I have a music studio in my house, I build interactive lighting installations for the biggest music festivals in the world, I build custom hardware controllers for fire effects that travel all over the country, I travel around the world teaching people how to build hardware devices, and when home I spend the majority of my time teaching and building software that people love; I use my laptop for over 10 hours a day.

All of this stuff uses USB. ALL OF IT. Having to carry around stupid dongles all the time is the biggest pain in my ass when I'm trying to do all of this stuff. PLEASE give me back USB, you can even call it the "stupid loser old crappy loser lame macbook for loser non pros". I don't care. This nonsense minimalist sleek design stuff is actually harming my productivity.

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No, USB-C is a step in the right direction. It's superior in every way imaginable to USB. It can handle almost every type of transfer (data/power), its orientation-agnostic, it's slim, etc. I could list the pros for days.

Having to deal with dongles for a couple years while the rest of the market catches up isn't a reason to push against the best port standard in decades.

USB-C is not superior in every imaginable way. And at least as embodied as a Thunderbolt 3 carrier, there are at least two.

There is no such thing as a USB-C hub. The protocol doesn't support it. That's one really concrete way that USB-C is inferior. I think I heard rumors that the proposed replacement fixes that, but Thunderbolt 3+USB-C is inferior that way.

It's also easier to snap off. That's two. Yes, it's better in a lot of objective ways, but there are also non-imaginary ways in which it's a pretty substantial compromise.

Maybe we should do a longbet on whether you're willing to talk smack about T3 once T4 hardware comes out. Because I bet you will.

> There is no such thing as a USB-C hub.

I didn't believe you, then I went and checked.

https://www.cnet.com/news/usb-4-will-resurrect-those-useful-...

Apparently all the hubs that have multiple USB-C ports are running USB 2 over them, or you can just use them for power delivery.

I am suddenly very happy that none of my other devices except for my USB-C hub, actually uses USB-C, I'd be limited to the ports that came on the computer!

Thunderbolt docks can do it, they just run multiple USB controllers on board, one for each port, but indeed, it USB-C 3.1 as it stands today doesn't support hubs.

I had to stop for a second and look. I have a usb-c hub that outputs to gigabit and multiple usb 3.0 plugs.

A quick google search returns https://satechi.net/collections/usb-type-c/products/type-c-m... which isn't what I have, but it's more of the same.

My complaint about usb-c hubs, when I was looking for one a year ago is I couldn't find one that did 4k60, gigabit ethernet, and 2 or more usb 3.0 plugs. This has led me to plugging in two cables instead of one for years. If my monitor had a gigabit ethernet plug, I'd be set, because it outputs a bunch of usb (2) ports.

This is probably the best explanation available of this: https://www.bigmessowires.com/2019/05/19/explaining-4k-60hz-...

This explains a lot. Thanks!

Hopefully USB 4 will make it possible.

You have a dock, an adapter, a breakout box or whatever the cool kids are calling it.

A USB hub is just one USB port in and N out. There is no such thing for USB-c.

You can't even chain those adapters. The USB-c 'in' port that you plug power into? No data on that line. Just power.

And some of those adapters send the wrong voltage to USB-2 devices. Had a hell of a time with my keyboard and mouse until I started plugging the power directly into the computer.

But only 1 USB-C 3.1 plug!

I guess we'll have to wait another few years.

I can see why this all is though, the limitations are going to be insane.

I so wanted to be wrong it's not even funny. Like, how the fuck did you break this and why don't I remember screaming and bonfires in the streets over this? It's bullshit!

The weirdest one is that I at least expected those 'hubs' that have the port breakouts for everything to at least be able to take data in through both ports, but that doesn't work either. You can only plug a power brick into the USB-c female port.

A couple other links. Insane that no USB-C hubs exist.

https://superuser.com/q/1381139/122042

https://mjtsai.com/blog/2017/10/14/the-impossible-dream-of-u...

USB A was very easy to ruin as well. It might look strong but usually its just held on with a couple of solder joints which I found very prone to bend enough to break the device if it ever got an up/down force on it.

> There is no such thing as a USB-C hub. The protocol doesn't support it.

Did you read the protocol specification? (It's freely available, with no paywall or even login wall.) The protocol does support a USB-C hub. Actually protocols, since there are three separate protocols involved, each on its own set of wires: USB 2.0, USB 3.x, and USB-PD. Each of them has its own support for USB hubs. The hub support for USB 2.0 and USB 3.x is the same as in the older USB hubs with the USB-A and USB-B plugs and sockets; only USB-PD is new (and has long chapters on how power delivery works through hubs in several different scenarios).

The only gotcha is that Thunderbolt 3 does not support a USB 3.x hub (but this is fixed by its successor USB4); this is worked around by including a full PCIe USB 3.x host on the Thunderbolt 3 device, since Thunderbolt 3 can pass through PCIe and Displayport at the same time (USB4 adds USB 3.x to the passthrough).

I mostly agree with you, especially on devices like phones where there's a single port, but here, there's 4 ports. Even if you use it for charging and two displays, you can still manage to put one USB-A in there. If you really like symmetry, maybe two of each. Unfortunately, Apple's obsession with uniformity and clean design would never let them do such a thing, even if the diversity would be objectively better here.

I can't sum it up in any other way than to say it's a user-hostile decision.

They should at a minumum have included a few choice dongles with the system. (usb-c to usb-a, and maybe usb-c to HDMI)

Additionally, they should have completed the ecosystem too. a mac-to-mac upgrade requires a dizzying variety of dongles, where one firewire cable was all that was required in previous systems.

I still remember when the MBP included a VGA-DVI adapter and a remote control.

Yeah, we’ve been saying that for what, four years now? Time to face facts. Usb-A isn’t going anywhere.

Type-A has completely disappeared from my life and that of my family's.

Micro-USB is still clinging on but those will fade out within the next 2-3 years.

Additionally, four years is a laughably short period of time to measure Type-C's adoption, but even given that, I would love to see actual usage data for, say, American adults.

Maybe we just have to accept that people have different usage profiles. Personally I don’t have a single USB peripheral that is USB-C beyond simply charging. But I have many many devices that are USB-A, micro USB, HDMI, etc. A laptop that has USB-C, USB-A, and HDMI is significantly more useful to me than one which only has USB-C. I own all the adapters but I don’t always remember to bring everything with me, so even given my multi hundred dollar investment in adapters I often have trouble connecting with things. And as far as replacing all my peripherals with USB-C peripherals, those tend to be more expensive, and also my desktop computer does not support USB-C so I would basically need a separate set of everything. USB-C is undoubtably a better port in many technical ways, but for practical purposes it really doesn’t hold up against the ports it replaced in real life.

> Type-A has completely disappeared from my life and that of my family's.

I'm honestly surprised by this. I have eight different type A devices plugged into my PC right now[1] and I don't own a single type C device (and it's not that I've intentionally avoided it).

As for the rest of my family, I don't think any of them have computers that'd even have a Type C port. Mine has just one, and it's brand new.

[1] Keyboard, mouse, external audio interface, printer, scanner, iLok dongle, external HDD, flash drive.

----

Edit: Valid point made in the replies that 50% of these could have their cables replaced to do USB-C at one end.

Cable could be replaced: External audio interface, printer, scanner, External HDD.

Cable not replaceable: Keyboard, mouse, iLok dongle, flash drive.

Those mostly aren't "type-A devices". The connector is not the protocol. Except for those physically integrated into a type-A connector, those are mostly USB-2/3 devices that generally ship by default with a cable that includes a type-A connector at one end and a type-B or mini/micro-B at the other.

I too have an external audio interface, a printer, scanner, and external HDD, and they are all connected via USB cables that have a type-C connector at one end and the relevant B subtype at the other. These are now cheap and ubiquitous. My keyboard is lightning to USB-C, and my mouse is bluetooth. As for flash drives, I buy the double-ended ones these days.

The adapters I still use are for an older U2F dongle that is physically integrated into a type-A connector, which is due for retirement later this year, and a Thunderbolt display.

So the writing isn't just on the wall for USB Type-A connectors in my household, they're basically gone.

As for what happens to all the cables with type-A connectors that shipped by default, those are in my travel kit for device charging off wall-warts or vehicles that often still have type-A sockets.

USB-A right now:

1. My keyboard

2. My mouse

3. My webcam

4. My headset

5. My BT Dongle (which my BT headset won't actually pair with, thus #4)

6. Wi-Fi adapter

7. Xbox 360 controller

Now that is my desktop, my laptop is USB-C, with a dock plugged into the port. Said dock only has 2 USB devices plugged in, wireless adapter for my Mouse/Keyboard, and my headset.

None of this counts the many USB-A charging cables. I have USB-A to Lightning, USB-A to Micro, and USB-A to USB-C, all currently in use. I also have a single USB-C to USB-C adapter.

I see it as a wealth level thing. People will still be buying $30 Canon printers at Walmart with USB-B ports and USB-A flash drives in 20 years. Not everyone buys their entire family the newest, most expensive hardware every 2 years. It'll be ages before USB-C and USB 3 hardware becomes as cheap as the massively produced USB-A/B and USB 2 hardware.

A printer with a USB-B port can be plugged into a USB-C port. Only the cable needs to change, not the printer. After buying my Macbook with 4 USB-C ports I simply replaced the cables for the various devices, and I almost never need to use any adapter/dongle at all.

I actually do have a digital piano with Type-B, and use a B-to-C cable as well, no adapter needed.

Luckily dongles/adapters are cheap.

Do you and your family exclusively use laptops and phones manufactured after 2017 without any external peripherals? Because it's still hard to find USB-C on anything else. Even some of Apple's own devices still cling to lightning.

Sure, some motherboards, peripherals, and displays have type-C ports, but they're still very much the exception.

> Type-A has completely disappeared from my life and that of my family's

This might be true for end users, but in my electronics work, I don't see even a single USB-C device around me, and I'm looking at about ~50 devices right now around my desk (dev boards/kits, logic analyzers, interfaces, accessories, microscopes, oscilloscopes, and other equipment).

USB-C only is perhaps fine on consumer laptops, but these are supposedly the more capable "Pro" machines, for, well, pros.

It's decidedly inferior in its lack of hubs. If you don't have enough USB-C ports, you're SOL (and given I have a 2-port macbook pro, I feel this acutely).

I've been using a macbook with one USB C port happily for a few years. When I need more ports, I use the multiport dongle:

https://www.apple.com/shop/product/MUF82AM/A/usb-c-digital-a...

What more do you need?

I have a usb-c monitor connection, and of course the usb-c charger - so any third device requires unplugging one of those. In my case that's a usb-c yubikey. That dongle gives me an hdmi port I can't use (HDMI on the 13" pro can't drive a 34" monitor) and a usb-a port I can't use (I was good and got usb-c perpherals!).

What if you have to plug two or three usb-c devices?

I like watching this from time to time, as it really resonates with me: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z58QrvVR7bE

As Steve Jobs says, you should start from the user experience and work backwards. Dongle hell is not a good user experience, especially when Apple's obsession with slimness is in part due to portability.

> Having to deal with dongles for a couple years while the rest of the market catches up isn't a reason to push against the best port standard in decades.

But why do I have to be the hostage here? I don't want to wait for "the rest of the market catches up", I want to get my work done, and my work requires plugging in lots of USB-A peripherals. The move to USB-C only was premature and trying to force the market using users as hostages shows incredible hubris.

god I hope this is satire

I'm about 70-30 on it being satire

Things change, deal with it. I've swapped USB cables to USB-C cables. Only USB drives, which i rarely use anymore require an adapter. Meanwhile, I can use all 4 ports to:

- Run a display

- Charge my laptop

- Charge a phone

- Connect a drive

I can even use a single port to both charge the laptop and run a screen with multiple USB devices attached to it.

I now need to daisy chain converters to use my PS/2 mouse on my MacBook Pro though, so that's a bit of a hassle.

Also, I can use the same charger and dongles for my work notebook, which is Windows based. I wish every new thing was USB-C, because I love it.

(This is a copy of a previous comment, because I feel it is relevant again.)

Having 4 USB-C's is a bit like having 4 Ferraris. Sometimes you need something a bit more practical. People will still be using USB-A for the next 10 years. Having to use a dongle for USB-A on a 16" macbook is pretty ridiculous. There's still a billion USB-A accessories out there and will be for a long time. Apple jumped the gun in a major way. This wasn't like dropping the floppy disc or CD-rom drive considering how small the USB-A port is.

> People will still be using USB-A for the next 10 years.

Possibly. But they'll be using it for the next 100 if no one ever removes it from anything.

The floppy drive died because a better option came out. If USB-C is truly better, than all new accessories would use it.

There needs to be a transition period where everyone has USB-C and USB-A so that the peripherals can naturally move to the better technology.

Right now I've never seed a good USB-C to USB-A converter. I work at a lot of conferences, and any time a speaker comes with a new MacBook and a USB adaptor, it's a disaster. They all suck.

They removed USB-A about a year before they should have, but now the industry has moved on. We can talk about it as a mistake in the past, but it would be wack to put USB-A back onto these devices.

How can we say "the industry has moved on" when the second piece of media on the linked announcement page has someone doing music production with a visible USB-C -> USB-A dongle connecting some rack-eared music gear. There's even a second dongle on their left that I don't recognize. I long for the C-only future, but we're not there yet. Apple's decision to go C-only always seemed to be an aesthetic one to me.

That was true last year.

This year, it's been smooth sailing at every conference so far.

I literally dealt with a broken hub last week. I have no idea what you’re talking about.

That's been my experience: at every conference I've talked at this year (three so far: ESUG, Macoun and SPLASH, heise MacDev still coming up in December), I plug in my USB-C equipped MacBook Pro and It Just Works™.

Only one of those was an Apple-specific conference.

Sorry your experience is still different. Mine was, too, a year ago.

If people actually started using electronics for 100 years instead of throwing them out every few years, that would be fantastic. It would also be a very radical departure from the status quo and I don't think it a likely scenario, so rest easy I guess..

While it may be fun to try to design something that lasts s hundred years and that people will want to use in a hundred years, who would want to sell it?

I'm not sure I see the problem - if it works and people are happy why not?

I agree.

As the guy who gave up my laptop( MacBook pro 2015) in a meeting to project because the 2 other MacBooks in the meeting only had usb c and the presentation was on a usb a stick.

At least they got the projector using usb c with a dongle now..

Nothing like having choices. Why my new personal machine was a linux based laptop.

There are still devices currently that use floppy disks. The only accessory I have that uses hardwired USB-A is my Logitech C920 webcam. All other stuff has a detachable cable. I will just change the USB-A to (Micro)USB-B cable to USB-C to (Micro)USB-B

The USB A port is very large compared to USB C. Especially in terms of volume.

On a Macbook Air, maybe, but they can definitely fit one on a 16" device.

While sacrificing something else. Battery, speakers, thermal management, or aesthetics would have to traded off for USB A to be included. Not worth it for an outdated port whose function can be duplicated by an inexpensive adapter.

Again, on a small device, yes every mm matters. On a 16" devices, the slightly bigger connector isn't going to make a difference.

If you were Apple's only user, you might have a point. But you're not.

Music professionals, video professionals, photographic professionals, and plenty of other professionals all have collections of USB peripherals which aren't going to be updated any time soon - either because there are no USB-C replacements, or because a complete replacement program might easily run to four figures, edging up to five for some users, and in extreme cases will be as high as six.

Some of these people tour or travel a lot. Having to rely on dongles - which can be lost, or stolen, or which may stop working for random reasons - is very much not a good idea.

Telling these professionals to "deal with it" is unhelpfully obtuse.

Speaking as one of those people, dongles don't bother me in the least. You're absolutely right that many peripherals are prohibitively expensive to update just for a connector, but they're also bulky and usually already involve lots of other cabling, so adding a dongle really doesn't make a big difference. Plus we're all used to having dongles just to hold license data anyway (thanks, Pro Tools), not to mention the menagerie of adapters that have been a way of life for decades in the audio world.

I think this person was saying to replace the cables, not replace the peripherals or use dongles.

Yup. I DJ and use cameras all the time, so I'm not just a guy checking his Facebook. I swapped cables and have zero issues now. For every cable type there's now a USB-C equivalent for cheap on Amazon or Aliexpress. People just want to find something to complain about.

Edit: Before anyone mentions that ‘now you need to bring cables’...When I DJ I always bring a bunch of spare cables anyway, because I don't what to rely on the location for providing me what I need. So I did this with my old mac too. Nothing changed except the type of cable.

maybe they should be complaining to the peripheral manufacturers rather than Apple. USB C is better and a major player going all in is the only way to get the industry to switch.

> Things change, deal with it

Things do change, but change for the sake of change isn't a good thing.

Meanwhile, I can use all 4 ports to: - Run a display With a dongle

- Charge my laptop Did you need 4 ports to do this? How is this better than a magsafe connector?

- Charge a phone Existing USB ports do this fine, and most charger cables have USB-A on one end. USB-C-USB-C cables are extremely limited in their use and are more expensive.

- Connect a drive Again, no advantage over USB-A

Apple has "solved" non-existent problems and in exchange they've created a whole new slew of problems. Why should I have to replace all my existing cables to work with a computer? It's because Apple is designing for slim cases above all else. (So slim and delicate that resting my hand on the case while typing causes random keypresses).

I broke an early macbook screen by tripping over the charging cable. When they made the switch to magsafe cables it was to explicitly prevent this very common occurrence. They traded trip-proof laptops for the ability to plug your charger into 4 different ports. What possible advantage could that offer?

> Charge my laptop Did you need 4 ports to do this? How is this better than a magsafe connector?

Being able to charge on either side is really, really nice. I miss MagSafe, sure, but this mostly makes up for it. I can also run my laptop off the ubiquitous USB-C battery packs now, which is glorious.

USB-C-USB-C are going to be much more ubiquitous too, especially when the iPhone switches next cycle.

Here’s your magsafe solution, it took seconds to find: https://www.amazon.com/Magnetic-Charging-Compatible-Interfac...

Oh good, another attachment to buy.

it’s $23, available online with free next day in most cases. further the massive downside to the old magsafe adapters is how proprietary they were and that they were soldered to the brick. if one frayed on you, as they did all the time, all you could do is go to the apple store. if you travel for work this becomes a massive liability. if this cable cost $100, was useless on other devices and you didn’t have to carry a usb-c cable in the first place then i can see your point. but when you buy a $3000+ laptop then complain about a $30 cable then it becomes hard to take you seriously.

> Things change, deal with it.

Other companies have dealt with change better than Apple. For example, I can buy a professional tier laptop from Microsoft or Lenovo with plenty of USB ports, while Apple's reaction to change has been to ignore their professional users' use-cases.

And you can’t compare an Apple to anything non-Apple. So as far as Apple laptops go, USB-C, adaptor or forget it. You can get adaptors so small you barely notice them. I’d rather have 4 USB-C ports than 3 because they scrapped the bandwidth of one to put in a old port. Most people keep apple laptops for years, and I doubt we’ll be using standard USB much longer

> And you can’t compare an Apple to anything non-Apple.

There are plenty of professional users doing just that.

For example, I can get my job done on a Lenovo just as well as on a Macbook, until I need to plug in a USB peripheral. Then, I can do my job better on the Lenovo than the Macbook.

and for the rest of the world where windows is a hinderance you can’t compare them. As a pro user i barely plug anything into my laptop now, just one usb-c cable connects my monitor, charger, keyboard / mouse (usb, not bluetooth) and gives me a few more usb ports. in fact this is better because i can shove my laptop in a pocket behind the monitor and not take up room.

every time apple changes someone people who don’t even use apples come out of the woodwork to complain.

Then go and buy one of those laptops. Use what works for you.

Just because you’re not a fan of it doesn’t mean it isn’t a solid solution for the rest of us. And the rest of us mostly like having change forced on us — it means we’re progressing forward instead of shouting at clouds for being in the way of the sun.

You're repeating the OP's "deal with it" sentiment. I'm sharing how other companies have dealt with it, and offer similar professional tier laptops with more USB ports.

Sure. So buy those laptops?

I'm not having a go at you directly, I'm having a go at the idea that it's constructive to even point out how a piece of hardware doesn't solve a problem for you and that there are others options. We know.

> I'm having a go at the idea that it's constructive to even point out how a piece of hardware doesn't solve a problem for you

I'm going to have to disagree, the lack of USB ports doesn't solve a problem. It's just a limitation that doesn't affect you, but certainly affects other professionals and their ability to do their jobs efficiently.

>Just because you’re not a fan of it doesn’t mean it isn’t a solid solution for the rest of us.

Leaving out USB-A ports isn't a solution for you though, it's just a limitation that affects some people but not you.

>And the rest of us mostly like having change forced on us — it means we’re progressing forward instead of shouting at clouds for being in the way of the sun.

This just stinks of fanboyism, any time Apple makes a big hardware change like removing the headphone jack from iPhones, it's mostly negative voices disliking the change. The heat eventually dies down and people adapt, but it's revisionist history to imply people like having the change forced on them at the time.

> Leaving out USB-A ports isn't a solution for you

USB-C is faster than USB-A. Eventually all technology becomes obsolete and it's time to move on. Removing USB-A and forcing me to switch to USB-C is helping me adopt a technology that is popping up everywhere.

I believe modern smart phones now charge via USB-C? A colleague in work also has a power brick that can charge his laptop via USB-C.

USB-C is here and we'll only move over to it if we start implementing it. Use an adapter if you're not in a position to swap out A->C for a while.

> This just stinks of fanboyism ...

And this is just a shallow insult, hence why you've been down voted.

> ... like removing the headphone jack from iPhones ...

Which other manufacturers immediately did too.

> ... but it's revisionist history to imply people like having the change forced on them at the time.

The iceberg is melting. The cheese is being moved. It's time to change and for the better. It's easier to be comfortable and complacent, but that's not how reality works.

I don't want to research and keep up with the latest in IO technologies. I trust Apple to make good choices for me so I can get on with solving problems. That works out for me in a positive way far more than it impacts me negatively.

I'll continue with a (roughly) five year cycle for upgrading my MBP and a two year cycle for my iPhone. And I'll continue to trust that Apple's engineers are smarter than me and are making intelligent choices for me.

You're free to not trust them and do as you wish.

EDIT: In fact I'm actually finding it annoying how most new devices are USB-C and I don't have USB-C on my 2014 MBP. I want USB-C as power bricks, HDDs, pen drives, and more, are switching over (because it's the right then to do). Very soon I will be obsolete and you'll be telling me I need to move on...

You can also use one USB-C to both charge your Macbook and drive a powerful 4k monitor plus a few extra USB-A ports on the back of the monitor.

Being able to come to work and plug in a single cord and have it drive my mechanical keyboard, headphone amp, monitor, and power is pretty amazing IMO.

I have this exact setup on the Thinkpad in front of me. It is great, and it's hilarious to see my phone's lockscreen pop up on the screen when I end up charging it with that cable.

You know what else this laptop has? Two ports I don't recognize (thunderbolt and dock?) on the left, and on the right, two USB-A, ethernet, SD card reader, HDMI, and headphone jack. It's a false dichotomy to say that you can only get the one-port connection by throwing away all the other ports you might need.

No one made that dichotomy, idk who you guys are arguing against.

If you don’t want Apple products cool. I personally have no need for Ethernet, sd card readers, and USB A 24/7. Like I said elsewhere this is a non problem for me.

Obviously if it is for you you can buy a giant dell laptop with 20 ports.

>>Being able to come to work and plug in a single cord and have it drive my mechanical keyboard, headphone amp, monitor, and power is pretty amazing IMO.

Just imagine having a dock, and not needing to plug any cords :-)

Also, like most things Apple removed (I'm looking at you, 3.5mm), how has the removal enabled your use case?

To put it other way: you could have everything you outlined even if they had magsafe + USB-A

but with removal of those things, we can't have things we want/need/desire, for no appreciable gain to you.

After 4yrs of using USB-C I don't have any USB-A stuff besides a single microsd card reader for an DSLR camera. Otherwise I have no use for a USB-A.

If I did I have two tiny adapters in my drawer... my office has a few of them if anyone needs them but I've never seen them used there either.

But that would still be possible if they added a USB-A to the laptop.

Like the original iMac eliminating SCSI, DIN-8 serial and ADB for USB-A, the point of removing old ports is to ensure support for the new ones. Local pain, long term gain. (Uh, once they sort out the many flavors using the USB-C form factor.)

All of those ports were already on the decline because their replacements already existed and were better. Every one of those ports existed on a machine with its replacement at some point.

Apple never made a machine with both USB-C and USB-A. They never allowed for a transition.

Because of that, people aren’t moving forward because they are holding back upgrades.

OP never heard of a USB hub

I’ve never seen a USB-C hub that works consistently.

So you're saying you only need one USB-C port... whereas the Macbook Pro has 4 and not a single USB-A one.

At work I've only used one.

At home I bought a 2 pack of USB-C to USB-A the size of a quarter and never had a problem... only because I don't want to buy a new SD-card reader. But now even my external harddrive is USB-C (and incredibly fast/tiny at that) I almost never use them.

https://www.amazon.com/Upgraded-Basesailor-Compatible-Charge...

I really don't get what the big deal is. A $9 purchase which I now use less and less as more products adopt USB-c...

I agree that it would be nice if everything were USB-C, including my 2019 iPhone XS, which I connect to my 2017 MBP with a third-party adapter.

My wife just got an iPhone Pro Max. The cable was a lightning to USB C cable and the charger has a USB C port only.

I’d bet money Apple will move to USB C iPhones at some point. HN would go crazy considering all the negativity around any Apple announcement.

You could just use a lightning to usb-c Apple-cable instead ... No need for an adapter.

If Apple had provided me the cables to connect the current generation of their two products to each other, I would use them.

The current generation "Pro" line iPhones ship with lightning to USB C cables that connect to the current generation "Pro" line MacBooks.

Read my other comment. They do ship USB C to lightning cables on the newest iPhones.

Things change. I still have FireWire cables and external drive enclosures.

The new AirPods Pro come with lightning to USB-C. If the new phones aren't USB-C, they'll definitely have USB-C to lightning at least. Although realistically it'll be USB-C to USB-C (see iPad Pro)

It seems that Apple's hand-holding doesn't go far enough for some customers :-)

I’m not sure you understand. Shouldn’t the people who want to plug their new iPhone into their new laptop be less inconvenienced when those products are all from Apple, not more inconvenienced? People with modern Thinkpads could use their iPhone out of the box while those with MBPs could not.

If Apple can’t be bothered, what a strange thing to blame me for.

I don't blame anyone. I just find you amusing.

I agree with the ridiculousness of it all, but to be fair, there is no such thing as a 2019 iPhone XS. It's a 2018 iPhone XS regardless of when it was purchased or manufactured, although that honestly just makes your situation even more ridiculous.

I liked charging and connecting displays from both sides.

What I didn’t like was that over three or four of the Apple USB-C to hdmi/usb-a/whatever the last one was (thunderbolt?) and one third party adapter I never found one that wasn’t super choppy with my input.

So my Webcam would stutter, and my keyboard would suddenly repeating the same key 12 times (admittedly making for a pretty exciting experience with ViM).

Very frustrating. It may have been my computer. Don’t think I’d heard of others with the same issues in my workplace. But really made working a PITA sometimes for me.

Meanwhile my 2015 MBP did just fine with the same hub through switch setup, so it was most likely the USB C hardware driver in the Apple Laptop.

I think it's key you have 4 ports. I think the very small number of ports and requirement of dongles in order to get enough ports (and lack of USB-C hub) perpetuates USB.

If you have 1 or 2 USB-C ports odds are you'll need a dongle. Since the only USB-C dongles don't multiply ports, it'll have multiple USB ports. If you had a lot of USB-C ports, you'd likely get adapters and switch to USB-C as you upgraded things. Now, unless you can switch to wireless, you basically have to replace it with a USB device.

> I now need to daisy chain converters to use my PS/2 mouse on my MacBook Pro though, so that's a bit of a hassle.

Out of curiosity, what PS/2 mouse do you use?

> Things change, deal with it

That argument can be used to explain away any problem.

4 usb ports are massively redundant. Even if someone loves usb-C having a usb-A port will add a lot of usability without compromising on anything else.

I'm the opposite so I guess our desires cancel each other out. I will never buy a laptop or any device that has USB-A on it. None of my devices use USB-A and it's a legacy port that is ugly and wastes space. Same with micro-usb, mini-usb, lightning, etc. I'm living a 1 port lifestyle and it's phenomenal for traveling, minimalism, and just not having to worry about having the right cable in the right place.

Same here. I love using just one charger and cable for my laptop, tablet, game console, headphones, and more. I’ll never go back to USB-A.

Except for devices which have a hardwired cable, you can get USB-C to USB-whatever and nearly all, if not all, professional equipment I know of does not have hardwired cables. So in the worst case, you need to replace your cables and in the best case, you now have four direct ports, more than any portable Mac has had since the transition to USB-C. And for the cases where the connection must be USB-A adapters are small and reliable.

If you haven't used a USB-C/Thunderbolt-3 notebook, being able to go from portable to charging, full size monitor, peripherals, external storage, etc. with one cable is a welcome change.

Apple's commitment to supporting legacy ports (albeit through adapters) is pretty good, in my experience. As an anecdote, I needed to get some data off of an old Firewire 400 hard drive and linked Thunderbolt 3 to Thunderbolt 2, Thunderbolt 2 to Firewire 800, Firewire 800 to 400 cable into the drive and it mounts like it would on a direct connection.

USB-C is great. Carrying around a dongle is not that hard IMO, but if you can't, just buy a bunch of these[1] and keep them attached to your USB cables all the time.

[1] https://www.amazon.com/Syntech-Adapter-Thunderbolt-Compatibl...

I can easily plug any USB device into my MacBook with a cable. I cannot however plug a firewire, thunderbolt or HDMI cable into a USB-A port. Yes I need to purchase different cables, but they are relatively cheap compared to something like a laptop docking station that I might need otherwise.

> I cannot however plug a firewire, thunderbolt or HDMI cable into a USB-A port.

I tried to plug my firewire into my USB-C port and it didn't work. Help!

You can run FireWire over usb-c form factor.

I take it you mean specifically USB-A? I can understand that, but I think I'd be satisfied if they would just put more than four USB-C ports on the thing. That should be the upside of a smaller USB connector, give me a dozen ports since dang near everything uses USB these days.

I think they are limited to 4 by available PCIe lanes since they are thunderbolt ports. It would a a confusing mess if they added more ports but only gave them USB 3.1 capability

They could switch them. It's unlikely that you need thunderbolt at 4 ports at the same time. On the other hand, 4 universally usable ports are already a lot. They might not cater for the long tail. Less than 4, and it's not only the tail you are cutting off.

I think it is to be expected by Apple to remove 2 of those 4 in the next generation, or one afterwards. It's a logical (to them) step towards cable-free computing, which is great and all, but is the only way towards it forcing it through the customers?

iPhones 8, X, XR, XS, 11 and 11 Pro have all supported wireless charging but retain the wired charging capability. I don’t think they are incredibly eager to eliminate ports if they don’t gain something from it (thinness, battery life, space for something else, or water resistance for example).

Well, the refreshed 13-inch already only has two ports.

My 2003 12" PowerBook had 2 x USB-A ports, 1 x FireWire 400 port, and 1 x mini-DVI port.

My 2008 13" MacBook Aluminum Unibody had 2 x USB-A ports, and 1 x mini-DisplayPort.

My 2014 15" MacBook Pro has 2 x USB-A, 2 x mini-DisplayPort-style Thunderbolt ports, and 1 x HDMI.

If you want a massive amount of built-in ports, then a MBP has never been your go-to device ...

And it replaced another model that had two Thunderbolt ports. The higher-end 13" MacBook Pros have four ports.

I've observed that sentiment applied to innumerable interfaces for decades. Interfaces change. The change is painful, but moves us forward to better.

Interfaces change, but making the switch too early makes it needlessly painful. I mean, how does it make sense that Apple's own iPhone and iPad don't plug directly into Macbooks without a dongle?

I mean, why stop there? Apple could just go to zero ports and force everyone to use Wi-Fi peripherals. They could sell a wi-fi peripheral hub for backwards compatibility. Then they could get rid of the power port and use inductive charging. That would make for an insanely sleek machine, even if it were insanely painful to use.

Dongle? Just use a USB-C/Lighting cable. Having the right cable has never been considered odd.

And even that's optional. I never plug my iPhone into my MacBook, because everything syncs seamlessly via "the cloud"; only use Lightning cable for charging, and I'm looking forward to dumping even that when I upgrade to a Qi-enabled iPhone in a couple months. Yes, I look forward to "zero ports".

The only need for cables at this point is high-power/high-bandwidth/high-security applications. Qi doesn't deliver 60 watts, and my employer overloaded the security so I have to use a Lightning/USB-C cable for debugging ... so I'm happy to have 4 tiny identical ports that do the job.

> Apple's own iPhone and iPad don't plug directly into Macbooks without a dongle?

The newest gen of iPhones come with C to Lightning rather than A to Lightning now. Because that's also the requirement for USB-PD fast charging for the iPhone and Macbook. They've also sold the cables separately for the last two years for the USB-PD fast charging.

> How does it make sense that Apple's own iPhone and iPad don't plug directly into Macbooks without a dongle?

There is no real need to plug an iPhone or iPad into your MacBook though.

How else am I going to get my photos off my iPhone without uploading them to Apple's cloud service? Even their KB tells you to connect it via USB: https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT201302#importmac

Airdrop, for one. I don't think I've ever plugged my iPhone into my Mac.

Why the "without"?

$10/mo (for 2TB) and the photos are promptly backed up, and transferred to your Mac. Full-res, backed up remotely, stored locally. Deliberate transfer becomes "already there".

I don't want my data in the hands of any cloud service. I'm sure theirs works well between all their products for you and many others, but it's just not for me. :)

They've moved to wireless where it makes sense, like with Audio and WiFi (for most).

But in many other cases, due to latency issues and such (like displays), USB serves really well.

My ipad Pro plugs directly into my macbook Pro without a dongle.

What type of ports are you using that require USB-A on the laptop end? Pretty much every port I know of has a USB-C cable for it, no dongle necessary. Since 2016 I've slowly gotten USB-C-to-Lightning, USB-C-to-micro USB, USB-C-to-HDMI cables, etc. I gave away most of my USB-A to friends.

Almost every mouse and keyboard released in the last 20 years?

If you need a hardwired mouse, keyboard, and power cable, presumably monitor as well - why aren't you just leaving those hard wired to a dock with a single usb-c connection to the laptop?

If you're talking about using a keyboard and mouse while mobile, I have no idea why you'd be using wired instead of bluetooth...

I can't stand lag, inconsistent connections, or changing batteries, and with the exception of Airpods, every interaction I've had with Bluetooth devices leads me to believe the whole category of hardware is generally one big dumpster fire. So instead I toss a basic $20 wired logitech mouse into my bag, and it performs flawlessly every time I pull it out.

If you're just tossing it in your bag, why not keep one of these permanently attached to the the USB end?

https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/71jtrs-Na%2...

That's what I do with the cable I use with my ancient Garmin cycling GPS.

Yeah, I'm generally fine with that for that one example.

But the bigger problem is that I like being able to use friends' mice if I find myself without one, jack HDMI into my laptop for random conference room projectors (my MBP has HDMI out, it is frequently used), etc. I can carry around adapters/dongles, but I have multiple bags, and adapters don't always come with when I'm throwing my laptop into the bag I'm using that day. So the chances that I'll have something I want to use and can't because I just don't have the adapter on me are pretty high. This is a problem I never have on my 2013 13" MBP because of the port selection, but that I will if I don't change behavior if I get this 16" MBP (which I'm seriously considering).

I think the long game here is that USB will shift towards USB-C. Plenty of new Windows devices have USB-C ports, and it's only a matter of time until peripheral manufacturers transition over and the old USB ports become useless.

The long game may trend towards USB-C, but in the meantime Apple made the Macbook Pro less usable for people who want to do actual work. How is it better to have to manage a bag full of dongles when Apple easily could've included the ports that people frequently use like SD and USB-A?

It was a bad decision 2 years ago when they introduced this generation of Macbook Pros, and it's still a bad decision.

>Apple made the Macbook Pro less usable for people who want to do actual work

That's straight up nonsense. You can still do everything you could do with a USB-A port. I'm also in the full USB-C camp and any of my old USB-A devices just use a USB-C to USB-A cable. I am in no way hindered from doing actual work.

I just carry a small Anker USB-C hub in my laptop case -- has two USB-A ports, an HDMI port, and an SD card reader. I must say, though, I've used it less than I expected to when I got it.

The point is not that you can't do those things, the point is that it's been made more difficult for little to no discernible benefit.

Apple has been going down this path of making thinness such a high priority that utility has become a second class citizen. So yeah I can carry around dongles for everything, but why? So the side of my MacBook Pro can have pleasing congruity in it's ports?

It is good that Apple has moved towards a standard port rather than just slapping 4 Thunderbolts on there. But the loss of HDMI, USB a, and sd card slots makes for more hassle with little upside, not to mention they did away with magsafe.

At least they fixed the keyboard and upgraded memory in a bug way, so maybe things are headed in the right direction now.

>the point is that it's been made more difficult for little to no discernible benefit

That is not true either. Although it cost me some money, I much prefer having 1 type of port to worry about instead of a million types and it has tremendously improved some of my workflows by being able to daisy-chain devices together. I can sit down at my desk, plug in 1 cable and have access to everything I need. Although I had a similar setup with a dock, I was limited to the number of ports. With the current system, I can keep extending and daisy-chaining to my heart's desire.

Just because it doesn't work for you doesn't mean it doesn't work for anyone just like my use case doesn't work for everyone either. To say that there's no discernible benefit is just silly. There are pros and cons just like with anything.

>carry around dongles for everything

That's a straw man. I don't carry any dongles with me whatsoever except for a multi-purpose video adapter because I still, unfortunately, have to present in a few rooms that have VGA outputs.

How would it make your life worse if in addition to the usb-c ports there was a sd card port and usb-a? Does switching away from magsafe make it more likely or less likely for the MacBook to get accidentally pulled to the floor?

I'm not saying that no one will find usb-c useful or that it works for no one's workflow.

I'm saying that going all usb-c doesn't provide much, if any benefit. They could've given you your usb-c ports and included the other ports.

If it works for you, great. The problem is that they could've made it work for a lot more people, but they chose not to in their Don Quixote-like chase for thinness and aesthetics.

The standard was adopted by IEC in 2016. How many years more do you reckon we should live "in the future" and use dongles because "one day we won't have to"?

I'm already living this future. I've replaced my usb-a, micro-usb, mini-usb, and lightning products. It's wonderful for travel, decluttering, and not having to worry about dongles.

That's pretty nice - but people who need to interface with a wide variety of devices in their line of work, or don't know upfront what the situation in the field will require don't have that luxury. So instead using a laptop with minimal 3 standard ports (USB-A, USB-C, HDMI), they have to carry dongles that get lost, bent, stop working etc...MBP is simply not a "pro" machine - it's a mainstream consumer machine that looks fancy on the desk instead of being functional. And that would be totally great if it was called "Macbook" and there was a "Macbook Pro", with ports, battery life, cooling, keyboard etc...

That's what they said about ADB to USB, USB to Micro-USB, Micro-USB to USB-C. Once everyone settles on USB-C, some new thing will come out that necessitates yet another port change. So much for "Universal".

If Apple cared about what its users thought about cables, they never would have replaced MagSafe with the wretched USB-C. Interestingly, if you want a MagSafe-like charger now, you have to buy a Surface...

Which magsafe? Magsafe 1 or magsafe 2?

(why a second incompatible magsafe - this is beyond me)

Surface has magsafe?

Interesting.

Even Apple still sells keyboard and mice with an USB-A port for charging...

Apple decided that their laptops are not power supplies. Is that so wrong? I need a single portable computer because it's expensive and has my data. I don't need a single dedicated portable supply.

Which ones? The Magic Mouse and Keyboards have lightning ports on them.

On one end of the cable yes, the other end has a USB-A connector.

same with their phones. If you know walk out of a mac store with a new laptop and a phone you can't charge the phone from the laptop...

> It's hilarious to me that their own marketing image has two dongles plugged into the laptop so that the user can still use USB.

Where do you see that?

I went searching for it too, couldn't find this anywhere either.

28s in the promo video.

I wanted to give a shout out for this USB C hub. Not associated with the manufacturer, I'm am just a happy customer.

https://satechi.net/collections/usb-type-c/products/type-c-m...

It only has a single USB C port (like every other USB C "hub" out there right now).

And to be clear, that port is for charging-in only, not data.

One nice thing about not having a billion ports that can all fail is that now most long term interface failures will happen on easily replaceable dongles. I guess the downside is that the port that connects all the dongles failing is probably really really bad. So you would have to hope that is at least beefed up.

That sounds like a super cool job, may I ask how did you started?

Find people doing cool stuff and keep showing up and offering to help until they let you.

Basically my background is software (like everybody else here), but around 2009 or so that started bleeding into hardware via arduino/hackerspaces.

And then that bled into doing some consulting work on large advertising installations (building motor control software for robots, building interfaces etc. Some of the stuff I've worked on has been for SXSW,comic con, and the super bowl).

I got lucky in meeting some really cool people doing really cool stuff at burning man, and they eventually let me help on some lighting and fire effects control stuff. That group then eventually morphed into a group that is also building things for music festivals, and when custom stuff needed to get built for it, I was somebody who could help, and so I got to.

As far as the travelling stuff: that was something a friend of mine was doing, but when she wasn't able to go on a trip, she connected me with her employer, which then led to more jobs etc.

But yeah, basically show up and be nice to people. Offer to help a lot.

Any tips on finding hackerspaces, online or IRL? Particularly in regards to art installations. It's something that's been on my mind recently :)

Do you have a blog or anything like that? I'd really love to read more about your work.

I would say you are not their target market - you have specific hardware needs a tiny fraction of the overall population have. It's been ages since I last used a parallel port to control external devices from a computer. When I do so, I use an $10 RPi-like board and its GPIO pins. I don't do hardware for a living, but I write software and this machine seems perfectly good for that. In fact, it's a bit of an overkill.

I'm the opposite. All of my stuff uses USB-C except my MBP. It seems finally I can upgrade that as well. I hate bringing my MBP charge whenever I travel.

Yeah it sucks, BUT if they are not going to add it how about throwing a nice hub dongle in the box for free? Something that gives me card reader, a couple USB ports, ethernet, hdmi. that would take some of the sting out of it. Since you can buy a good one for $50 this is not a huge deal considering the premium price you pay already.

Also while you are at it include the Apple Power Cable extension cable too. Crazy that is not included.

There's an easy and inexpensive solution if USB-A is such a big deal to you. Leave a USB-C to A adapter on all of your devices.

what is easy and inexpensive about that solution? that's easily the most inconvenient and expensive solution I have come across

An adapter is $4 and is reusable when you trash the device or the cable breaks. How many devices do you have?

If you buy a good usb-c docking station like the dell D6000 for your setup at home some pain will be alleviated

I looked for the marketing image with the dongles but can't find it. Where did you see it?

At least the dongles are color-coordinated with the white polycarbonate MacBooks.

Imagine if there were other computer manufacturers.

They don't care because you and people like you are obviously buying them.

If you listen closely, you'll probably hear my eyes rolling all the way from Seattle.

I too connect a bunch of devices via USB to my laptop (minus the brag). The problem was that there were so many devices, I never had enough ports so I had to use a hub anyway. Then graduated to a docking station and carried my hub around with me in my electronics bag.

So I just bought an USB-C hub (as the docking station already had USB-C). I stopped using flash drives years ago, I have USB-C YubiKeys now so as a proficient user of multiple devices, I really don't feel any pain because of this..

Great, so I need to take on an extra ~$100 USD to use a flash drive. Brilliant.

for peasants still using USB-A flash drives, yes (not if you buy USB-C flash drives). You will pay the peasant fee. My mac is sitting in a docking station with USB-peasant ports 70% of the time so that's that.. I also don't really do flash drives anymore because of this whole internet thing. Also, the laptop costs more than 2 grand. Is $100 too much for you?

$4 for an adapter.

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