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I've posted this before, and I'll post it again: the touchbar is not for the HN crowd. It's not for software developer "pros".

It's for audio, video, designer, animation "pros". It's for scrubbing and equalizers and color picking. Which much improves the workflow.

And to join the chorus, no -- you always have to look when using the F keys, for the simple physical reason that they're too far away from the home row to hit accurately touch-typing -- certainly for myself, and I've been touch-typing since I was 10. The only key I can hit without looking is Esc, because I slide my whole hand/finger to the edge and feel it at the corner. (Well, and the eject/power button at the other corner, of course.)

Also, to post on HN attacking other commenters with "I don't believe you?" Not cool, man. Not cool.

I 100% can hit the F-keys by feel. The important distinction is that I can feel for the button boundaries before I push; the fact that touches are always impactful, and it's impossible to add space between actions, prevents retraining that muscle memory to the touch bar's "global" actions (which might otherwise be feasible; like the difference between learning notes on a guitar vs a violin).

I don’t have super strong opinions on the touchbar one way or another, but I absolutely hit the brightness / volume keys without looking. If I hit the wrong one, I slide my finger over and hit the correct one. Personally I find this more ergonomic than having to look down at the Touch Bar to do it.

Funny you say, new Macbook Pro has hardware escape button.

After a year, I became very accustomed to touchbar, and use it more than I used F keys. Experience may vary, though.

Maybe people just disagree that it's an obvious downgrade? There are benefits to the touchbar, and yes people who prefer the touchbar over the function keys do exist - I'm one of them. Have you tried really using it, or did you write it off and ignore it as much as possible?

For example, the fact you're talking about tap-tap-tap to change the volume leads me to believe you're not aware of the swipe-to-change function. You don't have to tap the volume button, you just swipe over it in one go. A single tap-swipe. In my opinion that is a superior experience than indeed having to tap the correct F-key a few times. Is that so hard to believe?

I consider it a downgrade, at least in the sense that I had something I liked (F-keys) that it's impossible to get back.

My two most common use-cases for the previous F-keys (changing brightness, music/sound controls) are precisely those things that I want to be able to do without breaking flow or looking away from the screen. What used to be muscle memory now requires looking down, hunting, targeting, making sure to not the hit the wrong thing, swiping to the correct value. It's a tiny annoyance, but it's the kind of thing I used to do constantly, reflexively, and now there's friction every time.

The Touch Bar would be great if it were optional or lived in a new row, but as it stands, it's been 3 years, and it's still a regression for my workflow.

There's enough space to put this iphone stripe above normal keys, why kill the row?

The issue with the touch to slide is you cannot go from 0 to 100 without running out of touch bar space. Unless I have it configured wrong...

it's not consistent though, sometimes it just doesn't work and I have no idea why. Yesterday I've been only using chrome and safari browsers, VS code and spotify, and I had three different ways of changing volume all working in slightly different way.

I had no idea that existed and I've been using a touchbar Mac for years.

What other neat features does it have, for which the UI designers appear to have given no thought to discoverability?

edit: Apparently on the 2017 model it doesn't exist. Neat.

You can customise it to a larger degree than you realise, with tools such as BetterTouchTool. You can script it. It takes some work to setup but it allows for extremely cool things to happen. This should be right up every hacker's alley!

Regarding discoverability - it's a touchscreen, why wouldn't you swipe it? No one complains about two-pinch zoom not being discoverable. It requires a single a-ha moment which you could've had from taking a cursory look at the Touchbar documentation.

As a hacker news reader, it's on you for not checking out the powerful possibilities before categorising it as bad.

Edit: I'm finding articles explaining the swipe-to-change from 2017, so it should be on that model (I believe it's on every model since the beginning).

Turns out it's a separate control, not enabled by default. Only took me three web searches to find that out, and find out how to find the configuration UI for the control strip so I could replace the default controls with the swipeable ones.

I don't know. Maybe you're right. Maybe I was wrong to assume that Apple knows how to build discoverable user interfaces. I guess I should've spent a lot more time reading manuals and dinking around with the keyboard on this machine, instead of letting myself be distracted with trivialities like building software, solving problems, and getting work done.

I never really used the function keys much and I actually quite like the Touch Bar. Especially given that it's readily customizable, it gives me the ability to have an extra bit of information at hand without taking up screen real estate.

Unfortunately I got the 2018 MBP which has no physical escape key. This was initially frustrating as a vim user, but I remapped Caps Lock and now that I've gotten used to that, I quite like it.

The main frustration is that I have the butterfly switches which are indeed terrible. This was after Apple claimed to have fixed them, but I have significant problems with mine and the only way to get it fixed is to send it away for several weeks, which is a very difficult prospect.

I wish the accidental touch detection was better, I often accidentally graze the touch bar when typing numbers.

Even as an emacs user, the answer is generally "No, I don't really use the function keys".

I mean, you're right that I use them to change brightness or change volume. But the touch bar can still do that, so... Meh.

It would probably be awkward to use for about a week, and then I'd get used to it. So it's kind of a whatever.

I do agree it's a dumb gimmick though, and is unlikely to offer anything more than the meme of running Doom on the touchbar.

I had one for two months and could not get used to it, I don't even use the functions keys that much. But I also can't stand a back lit keyboard, it's just so distracting.

> Even as an emacs user, the answer is generally "No, I don't really use the function keys".

Of course not, you're too busy holding 3 modifier keys instead.

Nah, I just spam M-x butterfly for 8 hours and then go home.

No need to hold 3 modifier keys.

>I mean, you're right that I use them to change brightness or change volume. But the touch bar can still do that, so... Meh.

I can't use the touch bar without looking at it, in contrast to Fn keys. It's hit or miss

Yeah, I basically only use F3 and F4, and if they were missing I guess I’d just learn the alternatives.

I’m sure there are lots of professionals who rely on the F row, but never in my (long) coding career have I used those keys (except for a brief DOS period), so surely it’s not a downgrade for everyone.

And I have never, in more than twenty-five years of using a Mac laptop and surrounding myself with people who do the same, seen anyone try to _touch-type_ a function key.

That's because the design of keyboard prevents it. There should be a gap between F4 and F5 and also between F8 and F9.

If the gaps were there, I know I would use it. On my desk where I use the Mac around 60% of the time, I have an USB keyboard that has the gaps and I'm touch-typing F keys on it. It's the only thing I really hate when I use the laptop's keyboard directly.

How do you step through code? I use the Function keys to step over/into/out of methods/functions when debugging, without having to look down at the keyboard.

Ooh, I do! Or at least, did, before touch bar. I use Apptivate to remap them to my most used programs. So I could touch type to bring up Finder, Terminal, Chrome, Sublime, etc.

I also use the FN keys extensively each day to control screen brightness, volume and change songs without looking.

Almost anyone i have seen use MBP i have seen at some point use the brightness or volume controls without looking. So you don't even have to be using them for some advanced purpose. The panic volume-down with the right hand is a classic.

I actually don't quite believe you guys saying that you don't use the built-in functions several times a day - that was the first thing that was annoying to me with the touchbar. That you can't control volume and brightness from pure memory.

Personally, I like controlling the brightness and volume with Touch Bar. If anything, it makes the adjustment more precise.

But again, that's a personal preference. It's just so many technologies have changed over the last decades, that a slight variation in how I adjust my backlight doesn't bother me much.

> Personally, I like controlling the brightness and volume with Touch Bar. If anything, it makes the adjustment more precise.

FYI, holding shift+option moves brightness and volume in 1/4 increments.

Just to counter all the people who don't use F keys. I use them all the time. F11 multiple times a week because I have some icons on my desktop for applications I don't use that often. F2, F3, F5, F6, F7, F8 daily because I still prefer Midnight Commander to anything else.

F3 in Eclipse CDT to jump to function/variable declaration. IIRC, F12 does the same in MSVC - useful if you have bootcamp in the laptop. Same as F2 to rename files in Windows.

And, of course, Fn + F1/F2 to adjust screen brightness.

> I mean if the touchbar was above the function keys it would be an added bonus, but removing function keys for "professionals" is like telling a pianist that he now has to play on a touch-keyboard with no tangents.

Kills me everytime. The MBP I had at my last job had a trackpad bigger than my forehead, there's real estate for both. Seriously Apple why the heck not?

Not sure why people downvoted you originally, but I certainly downvoted you for your second edit.

Your certainty and refusal to acknowledge other points of view is condescending and annoying.

I'm a software engineer. I use a lot of keyboard shortcuts. I never learned which function keys control which hardware (brightness vs volume) so have to look every time. A touch bar would suit me.

And I don't know about your workflow but most programmers I know do NOT like function key shortcuts because it requires moving fingers too far. People I know prefer additional modifiers (i.e. CTRL-R vs CTRL-SHIFT-R vs CMD-CTRL-R)

Your last point is key (sorry). The function row is too far away. Any time I find a shortcut involving anything on that row, I either change it or find a different way.

I use the F11 key daily. By accident though and has me searching the keyboard for how to get out of full screen mode.

Also to your point about people having to look at the keys to use the F ones: why not replace them with something useful? If you are going to have to look anyway improve the situation.

Can't you just switch the touch bar to show the F keys? https://www.imore.com/how-make-function-keys-default-touch-b...

> Why on earth earth downvote a fellow pro addressing an obvious downgrade - am i missing something?

It's not an obvious downgrade to most people.

I can't believe how often I accidentally press something on the touch bar as my finger somehow brushes across it.

Same problem, I have to essentially disable it to make a Macbook-with-Touchbar usable.

Go to its settings, disable per-app configuration so it always stays the same, then, from whichever part of it you accidentally brush most often (for me it's the right half or so) replace everything with a "spacer" element, so it's blank.

You can still use the function toggle to see your F-keys if you need them.

I also have to disable the force-sensitive functionality on the touchpad or I can't reliably perform drag-n-drop operations. Took me way too long to figure out what was making that happen.

IOW I have to disable all the fancy new hardware "features" on modern MBPs to make them usable. And god, is #DongleLife ever even worse than I expected it to be.

Did you try embracing the bar? It saves a lot of time in apps that integrate it well and you can customize it easily for other actions that fit your needs more. It’s especially nice when it doesn’t just display buttons but also sliders and pickers. I also prefer this way Of adjusting my MacBook screen brightness, volume and other quick actions. Of course if you just set it to display F keys it’s a downgrade.

I use it a lot when I’m not on an external screen in media apps like photo or video editing, but I’m also the kind of person that never found f keys useful

You have to actually look at it to use it, which makes it categorically worse than the older real keys. Also until you have access to it on desktops and all of the laptops it doesn't make sense to adapt your workflow to it if you use multiple computers.

I have one of the first versions from work. And i am all for embracing if it actually made editing/coding faster for me but i just doesn't. I thinks the idea is fine if the function keys were still there.

Rant alert on tech-tactility:

I know it's pure anecdata but using the "sense of touch" when typing must surely be faster than having to context-switch while you have to precisely target a point on the screen with no sense-data to go with it.

I feel "alienated" by the cold dead glass texture of modern interfaces on large hard glass screens. There is just not enough feedback in my opinion which is why i still somewhat miss old cellphones with real keyboards. Also i think our primal brain actually prefers having switches and buttons, just as kids do from the earliest years. I am pretty sure there as also been some research into worsening performance from pilots when testing touch screens because you have loose the sense of both shape, touch and placement (space) - that's a lot of data you are sacrificing for the dynamism of a touchscreen.

Humans a tactile creatures and cold/hard/featureless glass screens are just not still as appealing as buttons and switches. It wouldn't actually surprise me if you got less of a dopamine response when typing on a glass screen compared to something with way more feedback, say an old keyboard with a lot of travel or a typewriter if you want to go crazy (as some authors do exactly because they feel like typing on modern keyboards is frustrating and "responseless").

This is also why i think a bit of DIY or gardening can be such a relief especially these days, because when you work with tech there is no feedback at all compared to real toolwork.

And it seems to be worsening. Today is already way different than the tactile feedback you got with a computer from 2002 with a keyboard that said "click", where you could feel a "micro sense" of accomplishment/affirmation when you pushed it, then listen to harddisk respond with the "reading" sound.

Sounds have also largely been removed and for good reason but this combined with all other feedback being removed and using tech can feel like yelling at a stone wall sometimes. The other day i tried using an old compaq computer from 1999 and i swear i got asmr-tingles and quite a dopamine rush just from the clickity-clack of it all, the harddisk sound, the small thraschan animation and sounds etc. Not just nostalgia but just the joy of getting feedback.

I entirely and wholly agree. We may be out of fashion with the cool "touch is the answer to everything, even when it's the wrong answer" kids.

You may be interested, if you don't already know it, in Brett Victor's marvellous canonical rant on the topic - he calls touch "pictures under glass", as it's not really touch is it?

http://worrydream.com/#!/ABriefRantOnTheFutureOfInteractionD...

Thanks! That was great.

I did I can't muscle memory anything because of the lack of tactile feedback. I have to look down everytime.

I use the F keys a lot for intellij

When you are kind to your wrists and use an external keyboard 90% of the time, it's hard to embrace a weird alternative input mechanism the other 10%.

I press ESC all the time, but I never pressed F1-F12 since 2001.

Seriously? To all the people that say they don't use the f keys: What about adjusting volume, screen brightness, or going to the next or previous song?

This is something i do dozens of times a day -without looking-. Having to look down, find, then aim my finger at a long glass screen 50-100 times a day is a annoying if just for these features.

actually I use the lower volume and raise volume button, but the touchbar features a slider, so I guess thats not an issue. (also I use itunes, which pops up when a new song is there where I can skip the song)

Not on a mac, but I use f keys all the time. F2 to rename files especially.

On a mac that's just the enter key.

On Windows and Linux, there are some useful shortcuts: F2 to edit the cell you're currently highlighting in a spreadsheet, F6 to focus the browser address bar.

The browser address bar can also be focused with Cmd/Ctrl-L

I do however touch the volume, brightness and media controls all the time. The touchbar really makes these hard to quick press without looking (or tapping twice in some cases).

thanks for that info

To me, the proper place to put the touchbar's screen would have been where the Macbook Pro branding is below the main screen. Integrate it such that it can be operated both by touch and FKeys. I don't look at the keyboard, I don't want to be made to look at the keyboard. Put the damn thing where you're spending 99% your time looking. Don't much care where they stick the fingerprint sensor.

FWIW I use FKeys all the time, and I'm going to retain F6 step over, F7 step into and others forever as that seems to be the default across many IDEs, not just XCode.

FWIW2, I don't like the new Pro retaining a touchpad the size of a football field - I had lots of rejection/false activation issues with my brief ownership of a 2016. The 2015 I replaced it with, and previous MBPs haven't.

Why would you have a separate screen under the normal screen? At that point you might as well just extend the normal screen half an inch down and have it there, like an android nav bar... Until people will complain that they want that space for normal usage... Besides, I think that bezel is needed for the backlight and structural integrity. Also, I don't find it comfortable to look at the very bottom of the screen, it's basically the same imo as the very top of the keyboard.

Quarter of an inch away from the already bright screen is very different to quarter of an inch above the keyboard. Keyboard doesn't even register in my peripheral vision. Putting a changing, illuminated screen where it will be in my peripheral vision is a guaranteed distraction - as sense of movement and light is stronger in the peripheral than straight ahead. If you must put it there, put it above the FKeys so I can a) use controls how suits the context best, and b) disable the display when it suits.

As to why not just part of the main screen - well Apple don't want to go entirely touch on the main screen implying two different devices, and separated it clearly serves a separate, distinct purpose.

I'm a programmer on a MacBook Pro from 2014 (no touch bar). I've never found a use for the F-Keys. But I do use escape!

You never control the volume, brightness or change songs without looking down?? I do this many times a day even when not using the programmable fn functions.

> without looking down??

no.

The worst part is that, looking at the image, it looks like there's plenty of room to have both. The trackpad is massive - why not shrink it a little bit, move the keyboard closer to the front, and add the touchbar on top? Hell, why not do that to transition for a model lifecylce or two and then go ahead and replace the function keys altogether once people have had time to adapt?

(Of course, the answer is that this is a laptop that's marketed to freshmen film and music students, not professionals or engineers...)

>I know this is becoming repetitive, but seriously still no optional touchbar? I mean for gods sake, why?

Because Apple doesn't do optional, except very rarely.

>Doesn't pretty much all professionals from programmers to editors to musicians _still_ use function keys as part of their workflow when touch-typing?

I do programming, music (DAWs) and videos (NLEs) and hardly ever use the function keys...

>To all the people saying they don't use F keys. I simply don't believe you. You also control brightness, volume and playback with these buttons and i have never seen anyone NOT using these keys without looking.

Not sure what you mean with the double negative, but whether you "believe us" or not, it's neither here nor there.

"brightness, volume and playback" I control so rarely with the buttons (like 2 times a day or so, 5 if it's some special circumstance) that I absolutely don't care if I use the buttons or the touch strip, and never used them "without looking".

For one, as a musician and video editor, I have an external audio card, so the volume is not controllable from the function keys anyway (needs the special audio card manufacturer's control app which talks to their driver), except if I'm at some remote location with just the laptop.

I care about touch typing using the keys I frequently interact with in the editing experience. F-keys, as you say, may be used for adjusting brightness, or sound, but this is not in my editing experience. I’m not repeatedly adjusting sound or brightness unlike for instance the esc key in vim.

I would also say it’s worth saying a lot of developers don’t actually touch type, or have grown more used to GUI workflows. The idea of a hardcore developer building software with their mouse turned upside down is one that I find outdated.

The bar thingy itself I don't care about (hopefully it can be switched off or, as a last resort, damaged by sticking a nail into it or something ;) - the problem was that my beloved Esc key had to make room for it which is absolutely, positively, a no-go. Apple seems to have fixed that so I can consider the 16", though probably I should wait for this "innovation" to make it to the 13". When will the 16" be in stores for checking out?

OPTIONAL being the key word here! Some people love it some people hate it (developers like me), make it an optional upgrade on an expensive laptop.

> I know this is becoming repetitive, but seriously still no optional touchbar? I mean for gods sake, why?

Because apple pay with the touch bar is more important revenue stream than the vocal minority of users (who I'm a member of) who hate the touchbar.

MacBook Air ships with Touch ID and function keys.

I literally have my touchbar configured so that I can't use the F keys. Fn brings up a consistent palette of touch icons, because hitting the tiny < key to expand the icon palette is annoying.

So you kinda have to believe me when I say I don't use F keys ;)