Comment by sershe | Hacker News Reader

Comment by sershe | Hacker News Reader

Parent Full thread

I actually wonder what's up with bullying in US schools.

I grew up in Moscow, Russia in the 90ies (many people were not well off to say the least) and I was both super nerdy and extremely eh, daring (I would talk back to other kids who were much stronger/more popular than me all the time etc.). Sure, I was not popular, yet I was bullied lightly and almost never physically, mostly by a couple classmates who were just kinda generally messed up (interestingly enough both of them are software developers now, as far as I know), and in total perhaps for 2-3 years in late middle school (I think). The bullying just kinda never happened; I never thought much of that until I read stories like the ones here.

Sure, I hear it was worse outside of Moscow, but even in Moscow an average student's family in the 90ies was way poorer than say in Ohio. Outside of Moscow it's not even comparable. And yet, the level of bullying was probably still lower than what it seems to be in any average American school.

What's up with that?

In Russia, do you stay together with your class all throughout high school? That is, did you share a core set of classes with a set of about 25 people for four years, with only certain elective classes where you would be split up (like music or art)?

If you do, I think that's the difference. Here in America, depending on the size of the school, every year there is no core group you share most classes with. You sign up for classes, and sometimes friends choose to stay together, but otherwise most classes come with a set of people that is likely to be selected from the whole grade. There are academic tracks for high/medium/low achievement in Math, English, Science, etc., but even in medium-sized schools you could have a class with a significant percentage of the students in the school every year. Some schools are quite large.

I went to high school in both Croatia and America, Croatia having fixed classes where students stayed with their cohort year after year, and I was surprised how different the social environment felt. Even for the more socially awkward people, people weren't really rejected or bullied-- because you would have to see that person for the next N years of your life. Whereas in America, "fuck that guy, I only had a health class with him once, his voice is annoying."

I think it depends upon the school system in the United States [1]. I was with the same group of friends starting with the 5th grade (9-10 years old) through 12th grade (18 years old, last grade before college). It just so happened that not only did all my friends live in the same school district [2] but also in the same school boundary [3]. And the high school I attended was quite large (nearly 2,000 students; 450 in my graduating class alone).

[1] Most school systems in the United States are vary by county to county. There's some oversight at the state and federal levels, but the higher up the government, the less oversight, generally speaking.

[2] I think it was the 3rd largest in the country. Large enough to be split administratively into three sub-districts.

[3] I was supposed to attend a different high school from my friends because of where I lived at the time, but the boundaries for high school shifted and I ended up attending the same high school as the rest of my friends. Strange now that I think about it, because of the three high schools in the area, it was the furthest one.

People still get bullied today for sure, but it is less than it was 30 years ago. There are kids today who grow up and have never gotten into a fist fight. This is incredible to me because as a child most of the boys would fight now and then.

Why does bullying appear to be more prevalent in the United States. I can only take guesses.

First guess would be because there has long been (since the founding) a strong vein of social darwinism in the US. For a very long time the idea of "rugged individualism" was held up as the model citizen. Independent, able to take care of him or herself without depending upon the authorities/government, etc. There is a fine line between "rugged individualism" and social darwinism.

Second, people in the US have long been taught to break the rules. We idolize rule breakers, rebels, and teach a general distrust of authority. In the US this attitude really resonates with the poor, as the systems we have set up do not serve them well. If you are wealthy or gifted it behooves you to follow the rules and use the systems put in place.

Third, maybe self-obsession is a factor. We encourage children to find themselves. Reflect on themselves. Figure out what is best for them. We don't often tell our young people to think of others, and even those that are taught to think of others are taught to the think of others in a patronizing, not empathizing way.

Finally, it might be the result of America's melting pot. We have always been a country of many cultures living together. The Italians, Germans, Irish, and later Hispanics, Africans, etc. all used to fight with each other in school. Today differences are more due to income and family status.

What's up with that? Bullies go after the weak. You describe yourself as daring, in that you'd talk back if provoked. You weren't their target demographic.

My gf is from an ex-ussr country and I also have a lot of friends from Russia/other USSR countries.

I also have a kid that has been identified as gifted (tests give without a margin of error IQ well above 130) and bullied.

I'm from Western Europe (Portugal) but I would assume it is similar in the US/UK and other countries. The main difference I see and talk with 'eastern' europeans and westerns is the sense of community and civility. Whether you agree with communism or not, with USSR or not, there was (and still is in most places, but changing) a sense of community and the greater good. Parents knew each other and each other kids. I grew up just after my country left a dictatorship and in a more tightly knitted group. I knew if I ever bullied/hit a kid in school my parents would find out about it and most likely I would get a beating. I would also probably share a sport or some activity with them even if they weren't in my class. Nowadays here kids and parents in general don't have this relationship, which I think makes much easier for bullies to appear. If your parents met on Friday for coffee and they talked about you bullying their kid, it would be an issue for you, but now, kids have no sense of 'consequence' because their own parents don't care so much or have a sense that what is going on is affecting others (since they aren't in any kind of social circles).

I have seen this change nowadays in Poland, Lithuania and Latvia (not sure about Moscow but I can ping some friends there) and the idea of individualism is starting to gain there (as it gained here) and more problems are arising as well in those countries in the last decade.

my two cents

Reply on news.ycombinator.com