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Comment by kempbellt | Hacker News Reader

What is the value add for a wifi-enabled alarm clock? Truly, what do you get from supposedly being able to program it from your phone? You have to download yet another proprietary app, go through a tedious syncing process to connect with the device, learn another GUI (unusable in this case), and cross your fingers, hoping that it works.

Is clicking a couple physical buttons on an actual device such a strain?

If you're frequently setting multiple alarms, as many people do on their phones for various reasons, does it benefit you to use this rather than just using your phone?

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For a non braindead implementation? You can run NTP and never adjust anything.

If only we had some kind of National Institute of Standards and Technology that broadcast the time and daylight savings flags in a machine readable format.

If only it were possible to receive such a broadcast without needing wifi.

It is:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radio_clock

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WWVB

I've had several that set automatically after plugging in, without the need for wifi.

It is possible to find real WWVB clocks, but note that most of the cheap "auto set" ones just have a lithium battery to remember whatever time was set at the factory.

It'd be cool if WiFi routers could broadcast the time unencrypted, for use by passive receivers, but that would get annoying if one near you is set wrong. Perhaps there could be a trusted source of signed timestamps, and a receiver just takes the maximum.

Better is just use GPS. You can passively listen without being tracked and you get the time and location. GPS is getting cheap enough ($10/1000 qty) to be a good option for this sort of thing.

Doesn’t work super well when your clock needs an unobstructed view of the sky. How many clocks in your house have that?

It's not like it needs a solid fix though. It just needs a single satellite signal to get through, which is way more reasonable.

I have a higher end GPS module. Building I'm in is corrugated steel sided with a metal roof. After being on for an hour the coordinates show... my desk. Far as I can tell.

GPS transmit power is 44db with a 13 db antenna gain. I think. And -140 db sensitivity (typical) So close to 200db of link margin. And the transmitter isn't in clutter either.

Don't mobile networks broadcast the time already?

Yeah, I was continuing the GP's sarcastic comment about WWVB etc.

GPS clocks do just this - https://timetoolsltd.com/gps/what-is-the-gps-clock/

So do non-GPS plain old longwave and shortwave radio clocks - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radio_clock

GPS clocks works inside a bedroom without a clear view of the sky?

My GPS receiver works just fine inside, even with the window blinders closed. I suppose it might not in a windowless room.

GPS clocks respect local timezone and DST rules?

I have several in my house. NTP amd WWVB are two different things.

How would you setup access to NTP? Hardwire the alarm to your router? Wifi access? If wifi, how do you setup the wifi? Adhoc wifi with a proprietary app?

Still leads to the same problem.

Also, as @rjsw mentions, accessing NTP doesn't help with setting alarms. Just setting the clock time - assuming your timezone is set correctly by the device.

You still need to be able to choose what time the alarm should go off, NTP won't help with that.

There was a trick I used to do to beat my lateness. Used to make set my alarm clock run fast, I guess that's not possible anymore

And because we live in the year 2019, I bet the alarm clock app tracks you in the background too.

... and was definitely not written by anyone who put any thought into whether the code spins in a tight loop and kills your battery.

If someone wants to make a "smart" alarm clock, I'd really like to see one that actually has a ten-digit keyboard with dedicated function buttons, instead of trying to cram all time and alarm functions onto three buttons and a switch.

It can't possibly be expensive. Pocket calculators cost $5.

I have the most awesome alarm clock. It has an LED display, a radio, and it plugs into the wall for power. It has a knob for tuning the radio and a small slide switch for adjusting its band. It has assorted other affordances on its outside that I will skip over.

The best features are the following: It has a battery-backed time-keeping chip which means it has never needed to have the time reset due to any loss of power to its main power supply. It has a piezo alarm that will sound if the main power is out and the alarm is on and triggered.

It also has a slide switch labeled "DST -on DST -off" so in theory I would never have to +/- the time EVER once it was on the right time zone.

I found it in a outlet-style store when I was looking for a WWV clock and this clock answers all my clock needs without needing WiFi, Bluetooth, any other antenna (for AM/FM radio it might be using the power cord, but I don't need that). It doesn't need to be told a password and I don't need to set up an account.

I think it was marked down to $10 when I bought it.

> I have the most awesome alarm clock.

It's cruel to describe such a thing without providing a link or at least a brand name/model number.

> piezo alarm

Yeah, that's why I don't own one. Since I'm not ready to invest in one with a bell/gong, at least my smartphone has a proper speaker. Piezos are good for smoke alarms and such, but waking up to one is awful.

To be fair that piezo alarm seems to be the fallback for an power outage only. I think it's acceptable to be waken by a piezo instead of having no alarm at all.

Fair enough!

I have one from around 2005 that sounds basically the same, except with an additional feature that shows its age: It can play a music CD as an alarm.

Also bought at a physical store, though I don't remember how much it cost. I think I last used it around 2011, though I do still have it. Wonder if it still works...

But you can connect to it via NFC to change what kind of tune the piezo buzzer makes on an alarm, right?

You purchase the tunes in a store /s

I saw an alarm clock like that in a hotel once -- it had a cheap 10 digit keyboard and poorly debounced keys, setting the time was harder than using the backward/forward button style, because typing "12:00" ended up as "11:11" more often than not, it took many tries and a firm press to get the time set correctly.

How about a dst toggle switch too so you can just flip the hour with a binary switch.

My bedside table clock has that.

I've got one that does WWVA/WWVB (useless, as they don't reach Montreal), a DST on/off slider, and a sequence of buttons to set the time, both with +/- buttons and a numpad. It cost me $20, I think.

I'm not sure about the particular model from the article, but I could see wanting to use Pandora or Spotify as your alarm instead of a predefined sound. It could also get more features further down the road.

So then it becomes a question of which is easier:

1. Set up a Siri Shortcut "when alarm goes off, play Spotify". Haven't done it, but having been knee-deep in Shortcuts this weekend, I'm confident that it is possible, and (on latest iOS) not difficult even for a Shortcuts n00b. (For Android, I know Tasker can do this.)

2. Fiddle with buggy and not-maintained-as-soon-as-it-shipped application to set alarm clock. Application must run on a computer that, coincidentally, can serve as a full-function WiFi-enabled alarm clock and can set its own damned time.

A wifi enabled alarm clock doesn't have to have a crappy app or even an app at all.

Also, alarm clocks tell the time with a quick glance. I like to know what time it is in the middle of the night, just by looking at a clock.

You might simply like the look of the alarm clock more than your phone, but still want to be able to use some of those smart features.

The OP wasn’t defending this specific model. Just having an alarm device in genera. So #2 isn’t the only alternative. Even something like an Alexa device is an alternative. where app is optional.

The stock Android alarm clock app has Spotify support built into it. I honest can't see a use for this in the slightest.

More probably you will be waking up to the ads.

> What is the value add for a wifi-enabled alarm clock?

My dumb alarm clock is the last and only thing I possess that requires I set the time manually. And it drifts. Even my wristwatch autosynchronizes every night to the time server signal sent over RF from Denver. I've seriously considered modding the alarm clock to autosync that way as well.

My alarm clock is a sunrise alarm clock with a 100W bulb. Can't quite replace with a cell phone. But maybe with smart bulbs. Hmm, I might have to rethink this whole thing.

And the best part is - there is no excuse for an AC-powered device with a clock to drift at all, ever.

Who needs radio sync signals, NTP servers, or a freaking GPS module (lol) when we have this great hardwired 60 Hz frequency reference which is measured and adjusted for long-term stability...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utility_frequency#Long-term_st...

> Today, AC-power network operators regulate the daily average frequency so that clocks stay within a few seconds of correct time. In practice the nominal frequency is raised or lowered by a specific percentage to maintain synchronization. Over the course of a day, the average frequency is maintained at the nominal value within a few hundred parts per million.[19] In the synchronous grid of Continental Europe, the deviation between network phase time and UTC (based on International Atomic Time) is calculated at 08:00 each day in a control center in Switzerland. The target frequency is then adjusted by up to ±0.01 Hz (±0.02%) from 50 Hz as needed, to ensure a long-term frequency average of exactly 50 Hz × 60 s/min × 60 min/h × 24 h/d = 4320000 cycles per day.[20] In North America, whenever the error exceeds 10 seconds for the east, 3 seconds for Texas, or 2 seconds for the west, a correction of ±0.02 Hz (0.033%) is applied. Time error corrections start and end either on the hour or on the half-hour.[21][22] Efforts to remove the TEC in North America are described at electric clock.

Power outages occur, and you probably want the time to be correct when the power comes back on.

The reason these clocks are so bad is that they use bad RTC units to save a couple dollars. A bad RTC can be had for pennies. A good one (like a DS3231) is $4! Thus, we are all stuck with bad clocks; AC powered or otherwise.

GPS/NTP/WWVB exist to get the time right initially. A clock will be wrong if you set it to the wrong time, even if you have a perfect frequency reference.

This reminds me of one of my favorite historical audio clips. A few minutes before the 1965 Blackout in NYC the power frequency dipped as low as 51Hz (US is 60Hz). Playback equipment with motors setting speed based on the power frequency sllllooowwwweeeeddd down.

https://www.musicradio77.com/images/ing11-9-65blackout.mp3

> I've seriously considered modding the alarm clock to autosync that way as well.

That might be a fun project, but I'd worry a bit about the future of RF time sync. The program was almost shut down this year but was funded after a small fight. I wouldn't be surprised if the funding doesn't come through the next round.

I built a clock from a vfd display and an esp8266 WiFi module just for fun. Since the esp8266 does not have a rtc module and no battery backup it gets it's time from ntp at boot and then every couple hours.

I've done something similar with an esp8266 + 14segment alphanumeric display[1].

That being said, NTP only returns GMT. You still have to hardcode your timezone and whether DST is active or not, right?

[1] https://github.com/adamm/esp8266-clockradio

yes, just as I hardcoded my wifi credentials. DST can be hardcoded as the range of date that DST has been active historically at your location to automate that, baring discussions of abolishing DST or such.

https://github.com/heeen/vfd-clock

looking back at the code, doesn't seem like I handled DST though. I would probably use something like wifimanager now to allow dynamically configuring wifi and other things

http://heeen.de/proj/vfd-clock.mp4

If it’s Wi-Fi enabled, why can’t it just set itself?

The article states that it set itself at the first daylight savings change, but apparently the wifi chip broke so now it can't set itself at all anymore

WiFi does not actually give out a reliable time signal, at all.

You're thinking of GPS.

WiFi lets you get to the internet, from which time can be transferred accurately. You probably have a geoIP record too, which lets the clock determine the time zone.

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