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> They all probably boil down to the perspective that they are a "rich" region and they will do better on their own.

All of them? That is ridiculous. It's a region that has maintained its own language since the founding of the modern Spanish state, they clearly have some cultural differences with their parent country.

So what? Also do Galicia, País Vasco, and many other regions and parts of Spain. And there's nothing wrong with that. In fact, it makes Spain a richer and culturally richer place. I love this diversity.

But this is not related to secession at all.

> So what? Also do Galicia, País Vasco, and many other regions and parts of Spain.

A complete list would include the Basques, many of whom would be happy to secede. We aren't talking about complete consensus and universally held beliefs.

> But this is not related to secession at all.

The idea that cultural differences - like language, but there are definitely others - are unrelated to a desire for secession, and it's all about wealth, which is what you asserted, is crazy. Plenty of secession movements move forward even though they are clearly financially self-defeating for the parties involved. (in my part of the world it's sometimes about Quebec...)

I don't have a dog in the fight but it's bothersome that you're trying to erase the reasons they are giving for wanting to secede. It's not helping anybody.

I think you read me wrong. I'm not denying that cultural reasons might be valid to support secession. I'm saying that having a different culture or language does not imply that you want or need to secede.

Indeed, in my opinion, it is the opposite and leads to a richer and more diverse country.

Ah, I did misunderstand you then, or something.

> having a different culture or language does not imply that you want or need to secede.

Indeed. But in spain this is just impossible.

As a staunch pro-independence supporter, I'm not for that option as a matter of principle, but of practicality. If the spanish state saw catalan language as a legitimate part of its own culture, I would feel comfortable being spanish. Yet, it seems to me absolutely impossible and utopical to change spanish culture towards that. I have heard too many times spanish people arrogantly say "I speak spanish because I am in Spain, you are being impolite by using catalan". Of course, idiot! we in spain speak catalan. If anything, catalan is a uniquely spanish language because it is not much spoken elsewere, unlike spanish, which has a strong presence in the world. But to no avail. I have given up in despair. The spanish psyche is inherently incapable to accept this idea. The only feasible way that I see to avoid the complete disappearance of the catalan language is by having our own state, and thus I fight for independence.

> The only feasible way that I see to avoid the complete disappearance of the catalan language is by having our own state, and thus I fight for independence.

In your view, if the central government let Catalonia have independence in terms of language, including what children are taught in public schools and what appears in public forums and so on, would the independence movement come to an end?

I don't know, I just stated my personal reason for wanting independence, but I think it's not very representative.

Regarding your question, it seems to me that it's too late now. First, the spanish public opinion would not accept any kind of "concession" to Catalonia. Second, any such concession would likely be dismissed as insufficient by independence supporters.

The only realistic way out that I see is an escalation of the conflict until it becomes unsustainable economically for spain.

The Catalan language really was in risk during the dictatorship, but during democracy its status has constantly improved. Nowadays, Catalan is spoken by the majority of Catalonian people, taught in schools, used (even required) in public institutions... How is independence your only way to avoid that it disappears??? You are just telling lies.

I like the different languages. I have lived in Spain and other countries where they have different languages, and I like that people make everything possible to conserve their languages and local dialects. And I think all this with my Spanish psyche, no less. But if I am talking with someone that can speak a language I speak, and this person insists using one I don't understand, I indeed find it impolite.

> But if I am talking with someone that can speak a language I speak, and this person insists using one I don't understand, I indeed find it impolite.

Sorry but this is a position of arrogance and entitlement. No-one is obliged to talk to you and if they don't want to do so in a language which has been forced upon their culture at the cost of the indigenous language then they are completely in the right to do so.

Sorry but I think that not doing what you can to facilitate communication with your interlocutor is impolite. Including not responding. Of course there is no obligation, but I'd find it impolite.

I travel a lot, I have lived in different countries. If everybody tried to impose their local languages to foreign people, this would be impossible. Languages are tools for communication, using them as signs of identity is the arrogant part.

By the way, calling Catalan an indigenous language is ridiculous.

>A complete list would include the Basques

País Vasco = Basque Region

One thing to note here is that the Spanish government pushed heavily on favor of the interpretation that a region that splits from an EU member state also drops out of the EU. This is a calculated move to create a disincentive.

The flipside is that Spain was pushing for this when Scotland was holding its independence referendum. So the Scottish people were told that they would crash out of the EU if they voted for independence. Now they are forced to leave the EU because they voted against independence.

They could have gone the legal route, and push to amend the constitution first.

Not doing so shows the manipulative/dishonest nature of the leaders.

Your reply shows your manipulative and dishonest nature.

There are very good reasons why the Catalans would not go for a push to amend the constitution.

- They believe it's a lost cause, since they are heavily outnumbered and the rest of Spain would be insane to just accede to losing 30+% of their wealth

- They know that the government of Spain will never let this happen.

- They do not accept the authority of the government of Spain, and therefore also not the constitution.

To be honest, they voted the constitution in 1978, not that long ago

The choice at that time was military rule vs. constitution. What would you pick?

Sorry but that's not true. There was a compromise between all regions and parties, but military rule was never an option. In fact, they were discussing long for an agreement that would satisfy all parties (obviously not 100%, but that's why it's a compromise)

And your reply shows how selfish you are.

As the majority does not want to do as I want, I take my way, without any other consideration.

Even the catalan people is not supporting this as a majority, you're ruling without considering the 50% of catalonian people.

I don't see how it's selfish. If you believe that something is wrong, it's your moral imperative to try to rectify a situation, regardless of what others think about it.

> regardless of what others think about it

This is why it is selfish.

I agree. but I want to add that selfish doesn't mean wrong. Or even ethically wrong.

I don't know that it's obvious that the people outside of Catalonia should have a say in Catalonia's secession (which would mean it wouldn't matter what the majority of Spain wants, just the majority of Catalans)

Somewhere else in this thread someone mentioned that 90% the vote in Catalonia was 90% for secession, and included half the population. It seems unlikely to me that of the half that didn't vote, more than 90% are anti-secession.

Keep in mind, I don't live anywhere near the area, so I can't get a gut feeling that someone from there might be able to get.

It was an illegal, explicitly forbidden referendum that voted 90% for secession. That anyone even bothered to turn up, just to vote "no" is a small miracle. So, yeah, it seems very likely to me that >90% of those who didn't vote at all would have voted against.

For more than 50% of the population to oppose secession, you'd need a voting turnout of ~90%, and for all the people who had not previously voted before to vote against secession. (50% turnout with 90% for secession -> 45% of voting population voting for secession)

Are voter turnouts normally that high in Spain?

The referendum was totally out of control. I will always condemn the violent response of the police that day, but the referendum was a total nonsense. You can easily find images of boxes left on the street and people "voting" without any control. And the counting (and whole organization) was done by those who wanted independence. You cannot trust those numbers.

There were regional elections on December 2017 and the independentist parties put together got 70 seats of 135 (less than the 72 they had before). More recently, in the elections for the national government this April, they only got 22 seats of 48 (some of the independentists refused to participate in Spanish elections after declaring independence, but turnout was still very high, more than 75%). The independentists never talk about these numbers, only the 90%. And I think that, many of them, seriously believe they are the 90%.

> Somewhere else in this thread someone mentioned that 90% the vote in Catalonia was 90% for secession, and included half the population.

That's a lie. The current catalonian separatist government got about 50% of the votes from the catalonian people. 90% of secession it's just not true.

NB: The Scottish independence referendum did not allow the rest of the UK to vote. It was considered a matter for the Scots alone.

Arguably this wasn't fair. Splitting a country in two affects everyone, so why couldn't everyone vote? But if the rest of the country could vote then there'd not have been even a tiny hope the SNP would have accepted the results. In fact, they did not accept that they lost anyway, even when voting was restricted to Scotland. But it's easy to understand why the referendum was designed the way it was.

Ironically it might be that these days the rest of the UK would kick Scotland out, if they were given a vote. It's not necessarily true that everyone cares about the Union.

The majority of the British Empire would not have supported the right of the American colonies to secede. Does that mean it was wrong of them to do so?

Should the Americans have instead pursued their cause in Parliament, where they were unrepresented?

The difference here is that Catalonia is an integral part of Spain, not a colony. They are perfectly well represented in every institution, and have in fact had a central role in most governments since the end of the dictatorship. Both situations are totally different. And, by the way, they did not only break Spanish laws in their road to independence, they also broke the rules of their own regional parliament, laws they had created.

The other regions of Spain are not so much Castile lovers as you think.

> - They do not accept the authority of the government of Spain, and therefore also not the constitution.

You are right that they don't do, specially the authorities there. And this is particularly concerning and completely anti democratic. It cannot be tolerated. They are out of the law, and many have been convicted because of this. Every thing needs to be done under the law. And if you don't like it, within the law, you need to push to change it. It's the only way.

> And this is particularly concerning and completely anti democratic.

It is only anti democratic if you accept that this is the way the majority of your people want this. These people think that it's a tyrany. That's it's one laid upon them by an outside majority does not help.

I'm not sure what they thought that was going to happen, specially given that actual support for independence hardly ever tops 50%.

The separatists do not want to proceed either way, so they are trying to do it "unilaterally".

Similarly a vote for Scottish independence should have included the entire UK, the difference being of course the likely outcome!

There is a lot of this sentiment throughout the EU and the Spanish do not want to be the ones who open the floodgates.

Scottish can do a referendum by themselves because that's allowed by their laws, and goes back to historical reasons. In Spain, the Constitution does not allow for a part of Spain to decide secession. It's very different stories.

Catalonia isn't the richest region of Spain anymore. The separate identity emerges from a distinct latinic language--Catalan--, and a history of past independence.

The perceived lack of respect by Spanish authorities of Catalan culture is a major issue. The fact that militarized Spanish police--the "guardia civil"--ignore Catalan law (which is part of Spanish law) when it comes to e.g. the use of rubber bullets (forbidden in Catalonia) against demonstrators isn't helping. The judiciary branch not prosecuting these illegal acts only adds further tension. And the right-wing Spaniards displaying Franco-era national flags with the black eagle--illegal in Spain--in their demonstrations, all the while taking selfies with on-duty civil guards only comes to show that the Spanish institutions, judiciary, executive, legislative and the military have already taken sides, and will ignore their own law to preserve the unity of the territory, even if that means dismantling the democratic foundations of the state.