Or is Catalonia trying to break from both Spain and the EU?
Irrespective of this, Spanish Constitution has a very strong enforcement of Spain's sovereignty and unity. It belongs to all Spanish people. So if that is to be altered --i.e., any region wants to secede-- is a decision that must involve every Spanish citizen. So in order to proceed, either everybody needs to participate in such a decision, or the Constitution needs to be amended. The separatists do not want to proceed either way, so they are trying to do it "unilaterally". That's against the Constitution, and the State needs to protect itself from that.
Anyway, if Catalonia would eventually and legally secede from Spain, it will be automatically out of the EU. And in order to gain access to the EU, it would need to apply and be approved unanimously by every EU country. In other words, Spain may veto that.
My opinion: it's shooting yourself on the feet. I believe they never intended to secede, they were just pushing this road hard to negotiate better financing and money for Catalonia. They have been doing this for many decades. But this time they took it too far, lost control of it, and now they don't know how to back track it.
Not doing so shows the manipulative/dishonest nature of the leaders.
There are very good reasons why the Catalans would not go for a push to amend the constitution.
- They believe it's a lost cause, since they are heavily outnumbered and the rest of Spain would be insane to just accede to losing 30+% of their wealth
- They know that the government of Spain will never let this happen.
- They do not accept the authority of the government of Spain, and therefore also not the constitution.
As the majority does not want to do as I want, I take my way, without any other consideration.
Even the catalan people is not supporting this as a majority, you're ruling without considering the 50% of catalonian people.
This is why it is selfish.
Somewhere else in this thread someone mentioned that 90% the vote in Catalonia was 90% for secession, and included half the population. It seems unlikely to me that of the half that didn't vote, more than 90% are anti-secession.
Keep in mind, I don't live anywhere near the area, so I can't get a gut feeling that someone from there might be able to get.
Are voter turnouts normally that high in Spain?
There were regional elections on December 2017 and the independentist parties put together got 70 seats of 135 (less than the 72 they had before). More recently, in the elections for the national government this April, they only got 22 seats of 48 (some of the independentists refused to participate in Spanish elections after declaring independence, but turnout was still very high, more than 75%). The independentists never talk about these numbers, only the 90%. And I think that, many of them, seriously believe they are the 90%.
That's a lie. The current catalonian separatist government got about 50% of the votes from the catalonian people. 90% of secession it's just not true.
Arguably this wasn't fair. Splitting a country in two affects everyone, so why couldn't everyone vote? But if the rest of the country could vote then there'd not have been even a tiny hope the SNP would have accepted the results. In fact, they did not accept that they lost anyway, even when voting was restricted to Scotland. But it's easy to understand why the referendum was designed the way it was.
Ironically it might be that these days the rest of the UK would kick Scotland out, if they were given a vote. It's not necessarily true that everyone cares about the Union.
Should the Americans have instead pursued their cause in Parliament, where they were unrepresented?
You are right that they don't do, specially the authorities there. And this is particularly concerning and completely anti democratic. It cannot be tolerated. They are out of the law, and many have been convicted because of this. Every thing needs to be done under the law. And if you don't like it, within the law, you need to push to change it. It's the only way.
It is only anti democratic if you accept that this is the way the majority of your people want this. These people think that it's a tyrany. That's it's one laid upon them by an outside majority does not help.
All of them? That is ridiculous. It's a region that has maintained its own language since the founding of the modern Spanish state, they clearly have some cultural differences with their parent country.
But this is not related to secession at all.
A complete list would include the Basques, many of whom would be happy to secede. We aren't talking about complete consensus and universally held beliefs.
> But this is not related to secession at all.
The idea that cultural differences - like language, but there are definitely others - are unrelated to a desire for secession, and it's all about wealth, which is what you asserted, is crazy. Plenty of secession movements move forward even though they are clearly financially self-defeating for the parties involved. (in my part of the world it's sometimes about Quebec...)
I don't have a dog in the fight but it's bothersome that you're trying to erase the reasons they are giving for wanting to secede. It's not helping anybody.
Indeed, in my opinion, it is the opposite and leads to a richer and more diverse country.
Indeed. But in spain this is just impossible.
As a staunch pro-independence supporter, I'm not for that option as a matter of principle, but of practicality. If the spanish state saw catalan language as a legitimate part of its own culture, I would feel comfortable being spanish. Yet, it seems to me absolutely impossible and utopical to change spanish culture towards that. I have heard too many times spanish people arrogantly say "I speak spanish because I am in Spain, you are being impolite by using catalan". Of course, idiot! we in spain speak catalan. If anything, catalan is a uniquely spanish language because it is not much spoken elsewere, unlike spanish, which has a strong presence in the world. But to no avail. I have given up in despair. The spanish psyche is inherently incapable to accept this idea. The only feasible way that I see to avoid the complete disappearance of the catalan language is by having our own state, and thus I fight for independence.
In your view, if the central government let Catalonia have independence in terms of language, including what children are taught in public schools and what appears in public forums and so on, would the independence movement come to an end?
Regarding your question, it seems to me that it's too late now. First, the spanish public opinion would not accept any kind of "concession" to Catalonia. Second, any such concession would likely be dismissed as insufficient by independence supporters.
The only realistic way out that I see is an escalation of the conflict until it becomes unsustainable economically for spain.
I like the different languages. I have lived in Spain and other countries where they have different languages, and I like that people make everything possible to conserve their languages and local dialects. And I think all this with my Spanish psyche, no less. But if I am talking with someone that can speak a language I speak, and this person insists using one I don't understand, I indeed find it impolite.
Sorry but this is a position of arrogance and entitlement. No-one is obliged to talk to you and if they don't want to do so in a language which has been forced upon their culture at the cost of the indigenous language then they are completely in the right to do so.
I travel a lot, I have lived in different countries. If everybody tried to impose their local languages to foreign people, this would be impossible. Languages are tools for communication, using them as signs of identity is the arrogant part.
By the way, calling Catalan an indigenous language is ridiculous.
País Vasco = Basque Region
The flipside is that Spain was pushing for this when Scotland was holding its independence referendum. So the Scottish people were told that they would crash out of the EU if they voted for independence. Now they are forced to leave the EU because they voted against independence.
The perceived lack of respect by Spanish authorities of Catalan culture is a major issue. The fact that militarized Spanish police--the "guardia civil"--ignore Catalan law (which is part of Spanish law) when it comes to e.g. the use of rubber bullets (forbidden in Catalonia) against demonstrators isn't helping. The judiciary branch not prosecuting these illegal acts only adds further tension. And the right-wing Spaniards displaying Franco-era national flags with the black eagle--illegal in Spain--in their demonstrations, all the while taking selfies with on-duty civil guards only comes to show that the Spanish institutions, judiciary, executive, legislative and the military have already taken sides, and will ignore their own law to preserve the unity of the territory, even if that means dismantling the democratic foundations of the state.
Similarly a vote for Scottish independence should have included the entire UK, the difference being of course the likely outcome!
There is a lot of this sentiment throughout the EU and the Spanish do not want to be the ones who open the floodgates.
It's the typical second biggest city not having internal relevance compared to the capital even though it's as good, together with the common claim of everything happens in the capital, decisions are there, most money stays there, etc.
Also, it's slightly different culture, language, etc. And around WW2 time, there was an actual civil war.
Discontent keeps happening, catalonian patriots gets in power, central government remembers that constitution prohibits secession, they do a referendum anyway, (90% win for getting out), get arrested/exiled, with draws bigger attention to the cause, Streisand effect and all that.
Spain issn't really an united nation, you have actual separatist terrorists in Basque (which have a peace treaty recently), the new separatists of Catalonia, Andaluzia has seen the rise of dissidents as well. Add to the fact that some regions actually have their own language.
I remember one time while crossing the border by car, seeing a tourist information sign vandalized because in was written in Castillan (language of the capital, main "spanish" language). Beneath all the vandalous paint, was a sentence: "speak the <local-language>". And this was not in one of those more dissindent regions. Later I got into the city, and every sign was in multiple languages
Besides that, I don't think that there was anything big, it's just with the rise of things like populism and patriotism, it's normal for these movements to rise as well, as they already existed. It was just short of some leaders, and opportunity.
The secession of Catalonia actually appeals to me, but these seems more manipulation by their charismatic leader than an actual resolve. They could do it slowly building the movement and trying to amend the constitution. No rush. Rushing was just trying to get more money which got over their heads as the support and reaction was bigger than expected.
The economy is still fucked. Spain has an overall unemployment rate of roughly 15%, and over 30% unemployment of people under 25.
They've been making a huge snowball of this, and it's starting to be too much.
From talking to some catalonian people, I think the last economic crisis, its management, and the corruption scandals in Partido Popular (the party that govered Spain from 2011 to 2018, but is always extremely irrelevant in Catalonia) had a lot to do with it, as it was easy for many to blame those on Madrid, on Spain, or "on the Castilians".
(I'm from Castilla but around half of my family emigrated to Barcelona a generation ago. I don't hate any catalonian who wants independence, they have that right; I'm sick of how both sides use FUD and hatred.)
I understand they are the perfect enemy and have zero sympathy for them, and I agree with you this is the feeling of many people in Catalonia, but I find this argument very weak, taking into account that corruption scandals affected their regional government too (https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caso_3%25).
And a sibling comment mentioned bull fighting and funnily exact thing has been an issue between a southern Indian state, the central govt and the judiciary.
Not over the Catalonia issue, by any strecht. (Although Catalanists did take sides.)
they do an illegal referendum so that 90% means nothing when many people didn't vote (obviously you are going to take a favorable result when only the people interested on it vote)
If you get 100% turnout, and no one who voted in the referendum changes their vote, you'd need 91% of the new voters to vote to remain a part of Spain. Is it truly that implausible that some of the "leave" voters would have stayed away from an illegal referendum too?
Assuming that the results of the illegal referendum were accurate of course.
BTW, I also hate bull fighting.
I won't actually answer the question (it's complex, and others have done so already). I just want to make sure people understand that we don't really know what "Catalonia" wants because no real referendum has taken place.
Catalonia is a heterogeneous society that has attracted lots of immigration from poorer regions of Spain over the last decades, and claiming that "Catalans" want independence without doubt can only be done by adopting a dangerously ethnocentric meaning of "Catalan".
If you look at regional elections, separatist parties have consistently achieved less than 50% of the votes, even when posed as "plesbicitary" [1] on the issue. They've only managed to form governments because, as it's often the case, the electoral system over-represents rural areas.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2015_Catalan_regional_election
There is some info on the wikipedia page for Spain https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spain#Administrative_divisions
Spain created the "autonomias" in order to appease secessionists.
Not a brilliant idea given them the control of the Education(that teaches them that Spain robs them and creates fiction about their past, all while rejecting Spanish), of the Police(so their friends could close roads without consequences), put levies to shops that used Spanish in their signs and tracks and harass those kids that use Spanish in School's recess.
BTW, the secessionist want to own Catalonia, but it feels too less to them, they also want Valencia and the Balearic Islands. And if you let them a big part of Aragón.
Thus none of the arguments against Scottish independence from the UK was that Spain said it would oppose Scotland joining the EU on its own as that would be a precedent for Catalonia. (Scotland might get a “sympathy pass” if they tried it post brexit, but perhaps not).
I agree that the EUnwoukd operate better with a larger number of smaller members but there’s no chance of that in my lifetime, unfortunately.
It's best for the EU to not have two member states with a major, fundamental dispute about sovereignty.
And of course, due to the aforementioned rules about unanimity, if Catalonia were to obtain independence their admission to the EU would be entirely dependent on Spain's acquiescence.
- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalan_independence_movement
Afaics, they’re not trying to break away from the EU (which wouldn’t make any sense economically), but that may be an unintended side effect. Spain would have to agree to opening talks between a new sovereign country and the eu. I just can’t see that happen.
While money is an important factor (obviously) it's framed in completely different manner: former italian Lega Nord independentism is based on feeling/being superior on both the work & money side. And in fact Lega (Nord) was and it's still a right-wing, racist and xenophobic party. OTOH the independentist parties in Catalonia were basically left-wing (and now they cover almost all of the spectrum), and the economic side is more on the "we get +50% of our money out and what comes back cannot even cover the most basic needs". Having said that, there are obviously Catalans on the pro-independence side that can just be Lega Nord supporters. But the funny thing is that there are lots of Spaniards/Catalans against independence that can be Lega Nord supporters as well.
Then imagine how it is for the poor regions of Spain.
Lega Nord supports openly the independence of Catalunya because they are based on the same principles. Sure, there're differences, but the main idea is that they don't want to support poorer regions. Obviously they are not going to tell you that, but that's what originated the conflict.
In fact, some people in Catalunya (obviously a minority) were openly racist with other regions in Spain years ago (e.g., Extremadura, Andalucia), they even made ads in newspapers. Of course, this is not something that's really talked about.
I believe the plan is to enter the EU after breaking from Spain.
Short answer: no, just from Spain.
Long answer: while the biggest part of the movement is pro-Europe there are voices from the left-most & anti-capitalist part which are against EU because they see as an union that put money first instead of people. But as said, they are a minority among the independentists.
Historically there were the biggest supporters of Spain, specially in the times of the Empire.
For example Cuba was controlled mostly by Catalans.
After losing Cuba and Philippines there were lots of social unrest in Spain, and specially Catalonia. Lots of people moving into cities. It was the time of romanticism, nationalism, communism and anarchism.
Catalonia had lots of anarchist combined with a rich bourgeoisie that had repatriated a fair amount of the wealth from Cuba.
The rich bourgeoisie wanted more autonomy so they could be richer and not share their wealth with less developed parts of Spain,(while preserving the market to continue selling to them) like Andalusia and Extremadura, that were extremely poor at the start of 20th century.
In 1934 they supported a secessionist movement to declare independence of Spain trying to take advantage of the communist movement to declare Spain a dictatorship of the proletariat that only got traction in the north of Spain, in Asturias. Those that took part of the movement went to jail.
In 1936 the left coalition of Frente popular, that included communist and anarchist wins the elections, and make an amnesty freeing all the people from the 1934 coup. They start burning churches, raping nuns, and killing people (more than 700 in over 7000 incidents). The gobertment does nothing, because they are sympathetic to them, or they just want revolution coming(like Largo Caballero).
That leads to the revolt of the army and the start of the Spanish civil war. In Catalonia the supporter of the secessionist movement in 1934, Companys, is in charge.
This led to terror in Catalonia, in which the religious people were exterminated, something that Companys was specially proud of and made the bourgeoisie specially afraid as the anarchists went after them.
This made bourgeoisie later one of the biggest supporters of Franco, the irony.
After Franco won the war there was a very centralized State in Spain.
When Franco died, they decided to give autonomy to all the provinces in order to appease the nationalist(they did not supported Independence openly at the time).
In Catalonia secessionist were a minority at the time. Most people wanted more autonomy(who doesn't). The man who controlled Catalonia, an extremely corrupt person called Pujol was very secessionist and started creating a network of secessionist in all local public institutions.
At the time the Spanish gobertment of Felipe Gonzalez was also very corrupt, and the King of Spain(that pocketed deals commissions of energy deals with Saudi Arabia). They knew each other and made sure that Justice did not act upon them.
Controlling the education, local TV, and most of the economic system in Catalonia make more people become secessionist, specially young people.
Now it has become clear that Pujol was a tremendous corrupt person and Justice went after them, the guys that pocketed from 3% to 10% of all public money in Catalonia for decades.
Catalonia and Andalucia had been extremely corrupt for a long time.
That(most people getting to know the corruption) destroyed the nationalist party in the elections and made them what we call "flee fordward" with independence, even when there are not enough people yet for it to success without a doubt.
If they get independence, with their own justice system, they will be able to continue doing what they have been doing for a long time.
Right now most supporters of it are kids, 14, 16 years old and people under 30 years old.
They had been promised that they will be like Switzerland rich, part of the EU of course, with all the advantages they have today for being part of Spain(like exporting 70% of their products there)without all the disadvantages.
The EU has said that an independent Catalonia will not enter the EU.