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Comment by mainliningfbs | Hacker News Reader

But to be fair, the current state of gender relations is all men's fault. For all of time, let's say, the patriarch has abused it's power. Not sure how we could we could have avoided this backlash. And in my opinion, the revolution could have been much worse. And if men think their complaining should be heard, then go back over all of the times where women's complaints were completely ignored or even punished and is most scenarios, women never spoke up at all and suffered in silence. Not saying men have shitty lives too but men can't all of sudden be the victims after millennia of victimization.

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> And if men think their complaining should be heard, then go back over all of the times where women's complaints were completely ignored or even punished and is most scenarios, women never spoke up at all and suffered in silence.

So you're openly claiming that it's okay to exploit, abuse and silence men. Women suffered and now it's men's turn, right?

> Not saying men have shitty lives too but men can't all of sudden be the victims after millennia of victimization.

So you are saying men must also suffer millennia of victimization in order to repay their "debt" and finally be seen as equals. Is that right?

One of the biggest problems in all of these dialogues is the obsession of assigning "fault" and blame. The """patriarchy""" dates back, at least abstractly, to divisions in roles between men and women due to the reality of sexual dimorphism. I'm not sure how the societal consequences of genetics in primitive history is men's fault.

It’s patently untrue that someone can’t be both a perpetrator and a victim.

Also this is just disgusting. This basically says “Who cares. Men deserve it because they’re assholes.” This is no different than the overt misogynist who says women deserve to be treated like shit because “women are bitches”.

Your issue is that you see everyone as groups rather than individuals. That is why you are having a difficult time empathizing.

The problem is that the men who are currently struggling are not necessarily the men who caused the current state of gender relations.

It’s almost as if treating an entire group of the population as if they are an single homogenous entity is a bad thing.

> But to be fair, the current state of gender relations is all men's fault.

My current plan is to make sure more males until the age of eighteen, at least, are raised and taught by women. Getting more women in the education and childhood development process early will close the critical gap we have in ensuring boys learn (from an actual woman!) the right way to interact with and treat women. When that happens, it won't be mysterious to men when they experience cooperation and authority coming from a feminine perspective.

It's about time we stopped having only men raise and teach every generation of men. Women have much to offer here too.

EDIT: I suppose English does need an irony mark. I was riffing on "all men's fault", which clearly discounts female involvement in culture and morality.

"It's about time we stopped having only men raise and teach every generation of men. Women have much to offer here too."

About 77% of teachers are female. [1]

Also, mothers invest an average of 14 hours / week on child care, vs. 8 hours / week for fathers. [2]

[1] https://www.edweek.org/ew/articles/2017/08/15/the-nations-te... [2] https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2019/06/12/fathers-day...

What are you talking about? By far most teachers are women, by far. Something like 75% of all teachers are women [1]. If that's your plan, you've already succeeded... we're far from "having only men raise and teach every generation of men".

[1] http://cpre.org/sites/default/files/workingpapers/1506_7tren...

That’s already happened in certain US populations with disastrous consequences.

I think GP is being sarcastic, since overwhelmingly childcare providers and childhood teachers are already women.

Which is itself a problem. We need more elementary school teachers and childcare providers who are men, so that kids get the input of both (common) genders, and don't see taking care of kids as "women's work" (which is the inevitable conclusion they'll come to if 90%+ of the people taking care of them are women).

This is a surefire way to result in misogynistic and violent men, which is indeed what we are seeing in the upsurge in mass shootings.

How does having women involved in raising boys result in mass shootings? Because, without some kind of causal mechanism (or at least data showing a statistically valid link), this sounds like you're just making stuff up.

The link exists across all primates (and many mammals). Older men teach young males to behave. This is obvious if you know and speak to men about their childhood. All boys want approval from older men and will act out to get it (girls probably want approval from older women, but that's irrelevant).

Anyway I'm not going to write up all the evidence in a post because others have already done so. Here is a good news article which links to a acholarly meta analysis: https://www.huffpost.com/entry/the-proof-is-infather-abs_b_4...

Also I'm not arguing against female involvement but female only involvement or female dominant involvement. I'm arguing for dedicated parenting by both parents. Women have been raising men since forever and have actually probably had more influence in the past then today. The hand that rocks tge cradle and all. This is great but not a substitute for father's on a societal scale. Men can't substitute for mothers on a societal scale either. But that's not a major issue today the way father absence is.

Finally it does not take a very involved reading of history to realize that individual women also utilize male violence for their own ends. Mothers often ignore sons violence or even encourage it to further their own ends. See any mother of medieval or classical kings and princes to realize that women as a class do not share common interests.

Ah, I see. So the problem isn't that the schoolteachers are dominantly female. The problem is that the fathers have abdicated as fathers - either through abandonment, divorce, workaholism, or just being absorbed in other things when home. And other men don't step in and fill the gap (relatives, neighbors, coaches, or religious figures).

And that circles right back to the article. If men aren't seen as valuable, including as fathers (not just biologically, but in terms of nurture), then more men abandon that role. That leaves more boys growing up with no male role models. That I can buy leading to "misogynistic and violent men", and even to mass shootings.

Abdicated, or otherwise printed it prohibited from doing that job by changing cultural norms

This has always been the case. The majority of teachers are and have always been women.

> The majority of teachers ... have always been women.

This is absolutely not true. For thousands of years teachers were almost exclusively male. As were students.

About 77 percent of public school teachers were female and 23 percent were male in 2015–16, with a lower percentage of male teachers at the elementary school level (11 percent) than at the secondary school level (36 percent).

First hit on the googly

Reread the comment. Nowhere did I make any statement about the current state of gender split among educators in the US (or elsewhere).

In what country? Have you been to any US public schools in the last 30 years?

Nothing that happened in the last 30 years can contradict the claim "For thousands of years teachers were almost exclusively male".

History of the transition from male to female teachers in the US, around the 1840s: http://www.pbs.org/onlyateacher/timeline.html

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