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Comment by dijit | Hacker News Reader

Actually; now that I think about it, from a user perspective I also really dislike the App Store.

I used to _love_ it, I would check weekly for new things, maybe there was some new shiny (often beautiful) program to do something really well. The experience was on the 'better than passable' side, nobodies favourite interface maybe, but certainly not terrible.

But I actually avoid the App Store these days, both on MacOS and my iPhone. I never really noticed but I just slowly stopped installing new applications from there (unless sent there by a company website in the case of iOS); this was around the time that Apple Music was being foisted down my throat. I'm not sure if there's a correlation there.

I always suspected there were dark patterns at play in the App Store though. Although every program is reviewed, probably only 2% or less of them become popular, and if you are popular, boy, are you popular. the design paradigm is self-fulfilling. ("most popular"/"highest grossing").

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> I also really dislike the App Store. [...] I used to _love_ it, I would check weekly for new things

I used to do this too, and like you, I've now grown to really dislike it. My reason is different, though: the App Store app has _plummeted_ in quality. It's now so hard to use, I don't bother using it.

1. The UI is all over the place. Some UI controls cause pages to swipe up from the bottom. Some cause pages to swipe in from the right. Some cause modals. Whenever I click something, I have no idea what it's going to do. Here are some examples: https://grumpy.website/post/0RsaxCu3P

2. It's full of bugs. I have witnessed the App Store lose track of whether an app is bought or not, downloaded or not, or installing or not. Another example: https://grumpy.website/post/0SU9WNFXB

3. It makes the rest of my system worse. Every week or so, I get a message like "Fantastical cannot be updated because it is open". I didn't set it to update. I had no idea it was even updating. I just get an obnoxious dialog interrupting my work.

The App Store used to be like a shopping mall — I'd browse the shelves, see what was new, and maybe buy a small app I liked the look of once in a while. But now it's become so hard to browse, I don't bother paying. Everyone loses out.

I used the OSX App Store for the first time in years a few days ago. For the life of me I could not figure out how to download a simple free app. I had to ask my SO, who usually comes to me for tech questions, how to use it. Keep in mind I've been using computers for decades and have an above average understanding of UI design.

1. Upon clicking the App Store icon and entering my apple ID and password I get a 500 error. No amount of restarting can fix it. After a quick search, one of the top 5 search results led to a cryptic command I had to enter at the Terminal to fix it. This actually happened with a previous MBP and I just never used the app store (pretty much a factory install of OSX on both machines).

2. Clicking the icon to download the app ("GET" I believe) started a loading spinner with no progress indicator. Given it was only a 38MB app, I waited around for a while. Then I took a shower and came back. Still the same loading spinner. Decided to reboot the machine and try again.

3. I searched for the same application clicked GET again and then it turned into a cloud icon. Clicking the cloud icon seemed to do absolutely nothing. At this point I asked my wife who told me I had already downloaded the app to my account and now I need to download it to my machine. EDIT: I just remembered I was seriously confused at this point. I clicked the cloud icon several times and given there was zero feedback I opened both Launchpad and the Applications directory in case it magically already installed.

4. The above explanation made no sense to me. I'm familiar with the concept given I've used every version of Android and I understand I can download previously downloaded things from my account (that I installed on old devices). But that's not how the series of events unfolded. Anyway, I clicked the cloud icon a second (or third?) time and it turned into an install icon and all was good.

> 1. Upon clicking the App Store icon and entering my apple ID and password I get a 500 error. No amount of restarting can fix it. After a quick search, one of the top 5 search results led to a cryptic command I had to enter at the Terminal to fix it. This actually happened with a previous MBP and I just never used the app store (pretty much a factory install of OSX on both machines).

Further evidence of the theory that Mac usability in 2019 is approaching where Linux was in 2000.

> 3. I searched for the same application clicked GET again and then it turned into a cloud icon. Clicking the cloud icon seemed to do absolutely nothing. At this point I asked my wife who told me I had already downloaded the app to my account and now I need to download it to my machine. EDIT: I just remembered I was seriously confused at this point. I clicked the cloud icon several times and given there was zero feedback I opened both Launchpad and the Applications directory in case it magically already installed.

I did this exact same thing last week after upgrading to Catalina and getting the 1-2 app store apps I needed. I kept getting the cloud, I have no idea what the cloud means but it wasn't the down facing arrow I usually saw. So I kept clicking it. Turns out it HAD installed the app but never gave me an Open button. I stay far away from the app store if I can.

How it should work is that you search for an app, press GET, and it appears on your machine. I’m not sure what issue #1 and #2 are caused by (they’re certainly not common on a factory install with a normal iCloud account). I’m also not sure why the cloud icon appeared instead of downloading it straight to your machine. That’s also definitely a bug.

For #3, here’s how I’d explain it to someone who hasn’t used it before (you may know this already): your Apple ID is tied to the “purchases” you make across the App Store, iTunes Store, Books, etc., so that you can access what you’ve bought on a different machine. If you buy a paid app, it gets added to your Purchases list so that you can download it on another Mac without buying it again. This ties into Family Sharing so that up to five other people living in your household can use it too. Free apps also get added to the purchases for syncing purposes across all your devices. The cloud icon indicates that you’ve purchased an app and are eligible to download it for free.

TL;DR: you got a strange series of bugs that probably haven’t been seen by anyone else all together

I dunno. The App store for me on my iPhone regularly behaves like this. I sometimes see the cloud icon, sometimes not, sometimes it refuses to download, sometimes I tap the icon and it does nothing, sometimes it starts downloading, then every time the phone goes to sleep, it stops downloading... I guess I'm supposed to sit there and tap the screen to keep it from sleeping while it downloads. I dunno, haven't bought a new app for my phone in a couple of years now.

I believe the cloud icon indicates something that is owned on your account but not downloaded.

At least on iOS the symbol is a cloud with an arrow pointing downward. Not on a Mac to check if the symbol is the same there.

Yes, that’s what it’s supposed to mean on both platforms. It does sometimes show up when you had already downloaded something and then flash the OPEN button.

I've seen the exact behavior parent described many times. I doubt we're the only two.

The new Mac App Store’s design process is a complete mystery to me: it seems really weird how Apple managed to take a web view-based app, convert it into Cocoa, and somehow make it significantly worse at fitting into the platform.

I’ve also stopped “check[ing] weekly for new things”, but that’s because I don’t need any new things! Do you?

I don’t have Instagram but I imagine it’s a bit like the App Store. I’m waiting somewhere. I’m bored. I know, I’ll check for a shiny thing. Oh, no shiny thing. That was disappointing.

To compare, do you go to the internet regularly and check for new things? I don’t think this is the App Store’s fault. It’s not on Apple to constantly put new shiny useful software in the App Store — it’s on developers. And I’m not blaming developers. Making new shiny software is hard. There’s already a whole bunch of software. If you have a problem, chances are it’s already been addressed.

Constantly shiny + new ~== a good App Store.

(~== Not necessarily equal to. Did I just invent that?)

> (~== Not necessarily equal to. Did I just invent that?)

Instead of inventing new operators in your sentences, you can also just stick with plain English

On HN I occasionally see programming conventions used in otherwise normal writing. E.g. "at $big_corp we like to use $process".

I can't stand it. It's the linguistic equivalent to wearing a bowtie and pocket protector.

Almost as bad as people on HN who start each comment with "I mean" or end each question with "no?"

Hey man. Bow ties are cool.

I mean "need" is subjective, I was trying to insinuate that I didn't know I 'needed' what was on offer until it was displayed in front of me.

For (a good) instance of what I mean was Airmail. Standard mail on OSX was "good enough" but Airmail was just all around better (from a UX perspective) and the popularity of it made Apple turn their head.

Another was 1password; before 1password I was using the macOS keychain, but 1password is/was all around better.

Funnily enough, I started using Airmail a few months ago, and just today I've started moving back to Mail.app which is, indeed, good enough. In the end I found Airmail a little heavy. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

> To compare, do you go to the internet regularly and check for new things?

Isn't that what this site is?

But this is shiny new knowledge. God help us if that ever dries up.

> (~== Not necessarily equal to. Did I just invent that?)

Yeah... in most programming languages it would be

shiny + new <> a good App Store

shiny + new != a good App Store

The ~= (single equals) is used to for equal to with a regular expression on right side

Modal logic captures the concepts of "necessity" and "possibility" nicely[1].

You could express it as "~□(shiny + new -> good app store)" which translates into "it is not necessary that shiny and new implies a good app store".

[1]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modal_logic

~ means "approximately".

~= means not equal in MATLAB. Also it often means one's complement (C and others). Hence the gp used it to mean NOT.

Lua as well (uses ~= instead of !=).

I’ve only ever opened the App Store when there’s one particular tool I need to use. I’ve tried casually browsing maybe 3 times in 10 years (because it seems most people do this often) and it just seemed like endless fluff and garbage. I’ve never downloaded anything that I didn’t go in thinking “I need this.”

In the past when I looked for a new app I went to the app store. But now since I'm on an older version of MacOS and very few app store apps run on any but the latest release of MacOS, I don't bother. I find the apps I need by googling.

Edit: This implies there are a lot of great apps that don't get my money because they only sell on the app store. Looking at you Pixelmator.

This is very hard. Supporting API + UI changes is not easy. Microsoft is not doing it (Skype etc) so why should small teams do it. We don't just program we run BUSINESS.

Can you explain the Microsoft bit? There's an ocean of difference between Microsoft and Apple. You can pretty much pick any MS API from the past 20 years and it'll still work on Windows 10.

Microsoft is moving away from that model. The cost of rapid release cycles for Windows is dropping the testing and compatibility work that was done in the past.

You see the impact on a few things like Office and SCCM today. As the legacy windows platforms fade, it will become a thing in other areas. My guess is you’ll see more “fixed in Azure only” scenarios to drive demand for those products, and act as a sales funnel for complementary services.

Sounds like a perfect place for Linux to jump in. I mean if you're looking for stability, there's always stability in the Linux space.

Microsoft uses (and since 7 has used) automated compatibility testing.

It takes less time to test compatibility than it does to compile.

Office 2019 for Mac requires Mac OS X 10.12 Sierra or later. Maybe it's a business reason but at the same time their skype requires 10.10. Update Skype for web 10.12 [0] https://blogs.skype.com/news/2019/03/07/the-new-skype-for-we...

> But I actually avoid the App Store these days, both on MacOS and my iPhone. I never really noticed but I just slowly stopped installing new applications from there

That sounds less like avoiding and more like not using. I think this is natural. When the App Store first came out, apple planted the idea in our head that we needed new ways to use our machines. But unless you are a new user, it’s likely you’ve hit an equilibrium where you know how you want to use the device.

I’ve noticed something different. The apps on the app store used to be good. I’m not sure how or why but the apps on the iOS app store are _terrible_. For any given function, there appears to be no good option on the app store compared to, say, iOS app store 4 years ago (or android around the same time, the last time I used it). This is entirely on apple and not the developers, as Apple are the curators and the developers have already demonstrated they can make good apps.

Not to mention Apple's habit of taking good apps and then building them into iOS to cannibalize their own developers. I don't get why anyone would want to build smartphone apps for any platform these days. Between Google and Apple it's entirely a garbage ecosystem for devs.

APIs are locked down to the point that only Apple can add useful functionality, which is by design.

You just described why Apple has dragged their feet as slowly as possible developing Safari. "Add to Home Screen" is now completely hidden away and unlike on Android, progressive web app functionality is delayed as long as they possibly can.

I imagine there would be so much innovation and interesting content if these companies didn't have such a tight grip on their walled gardens. Politically sensitive, erotic content or just innovative apps that operate outside of the Apple curators is just never going to be available for users of this expensive hardware. I believe it should at the very least be optional like sideloading is on Android.

I always thought of the App store as a lottery. Better to make a few millionaires than to make everyone happy. The point is that this pattern plays out well for Apple because it shapes the image that you can become a millionaire too by developing for the App store.

Nature has dark patterns if 2% chance of popularity is the threshold to qualify. Many other markets I see converge on a few huge players too, retail, food, hotels, software, banks, etc.

Instead of getting hung up on the exact percentage; perhaps I meant more like 0.000002%?

MacOS/iOS application stores are likely in the hundreds of thousands (if not millions) of applications, however I see the same 20 when I browse without using the search field.

The difference is the Apple app store is not nature. They make a point of curating the app store. When the results are bad and getting worse there is only one player to blame.

I never regularly looked in the app/play store for new apps, only used the search function to find what I need. However, since installing f-droid, I notice that I scroll through their new section every now and then to keep up with what people are doing and I like it and discover useful apps.

I completely stopped installing apps when I realized how screwed up the whole app market is.

Nice apps I liked were bought and monetized in EXTREMELY UNETHICAL ways.

For one example, I had an app called gas cubby, which let me locally - on the phone - keep track of all my vehicles. I could enter detailed information about each car such as year, make, model, vin, insurance policy, gas purchases, oil changes and the like. It would tell you gas mileage and remind you of upcoming maintenance.

One day, the app was updated and all my local data was uploaded to the cloud.

Another app, camscanner plus purchased by tencent basically did the same thing.

Apple gives you no control over what the apps do. You can argue the finer points, but:

- you cannot determine what apps are doing. are they intercepting URLs browsed in safari, mail or imessage? (deep linking)

- you cannot determine when they are active. are they waking up using some "backdoor" method such as notifications

- you can not prevent them from accessing the network. this is the big one. You can't find out who they are talking to or prevent it.

Really it's a shame because one rule of economics is: with trust trade becomes unrestricted.

> I always suspected there were dark patterns at play in the App Store though.

Here's one I found: you can't install a lot of applications unless you're on the latest-and-greatest OS version. This punishes people who are more conservative with upgrades, and don't want to jump to an OS before it's fully cooked. You'd think they could just offer to let you install the latest compatible version.

I can't install XCode from the App Store because I'm stuck on High Sierra, because my Macbook as a highly disruptive freeze-on-wake bug that manifests on every version of Mojave I've tried. I've never been able to figure it out, and Apple apparently only supports its laptops if they have no software installed on them.

What I found crazy, was Xcode disappears from the App Store altogether when searching from High Sierra. It took me several searches to realize that they hid it.

I'm not too familiar with the App Store, but a big issue with all of these stores is that they have limited screen estate for promoting apps from their catalog. So you get a ridiculously tiny subset of apps that is featured on the storefront itself and thus gets the attention and sales.

If you have a product for sale through such a store front, the best way is to not play the game of getting to the front pages or at least to not rely on it. Instead, you get attempts to drive sales through product web pages that link to the stores.

Even so I think the real estate could be used much more effectively. The focus on app icons really annoys me because many app icons tell me almost nothing; a single screen shot visible by default in summary views would go a long way. They also have a lot of lists that are almost guaranteed to change rarely, like “top grossing”, which just means every time you come back you see a bunch of stuff you already know about.

I don't think screen space is the problem because a store can easily randomize the offerings, so each visitor sees different apps.

From a user's perspective I feel sorry for all the people who bought, full price, App Store versions of games like Civilization VI which are not compatible with PC, and Steam versions.

The App Store used to have a Free App of the Day (or was it of the week?) that got me to go and check it out. I've often look around at other apps at the same time. Ever since they dropped that and revamped the store I only visit on the very rare occasions when I read about a particular app somewhere else and go search for it. I'd guess I visit the app store maybe twice a year now.

"dark patterns" alright...

BTW, all developers still have to submit their apps to Apple for "notarization" in Catalina, even if they don't distribute through macOS AppStore --it is partially enforced now and will be fully enforced in the next few weeks.

I have about 500 apps on my various iDevices. I stopped buying apps years ago - when Apple removed the ability to do so on MacOS.

Its just so cumbersome to manage apps on the iDevices themselves .. so I just stopped. I've got enough apps for everything I need (music-making, mostly). Sure, if someone recommends something amazing, I'll check it out - but for the most part I have reached the saturation point, and I really abhor going to the App Store, for any reason whatsoever.

I still have a much, much better user experience on my Ubuntu workstation, and now even on Windows with chocolatey. It feels so backwards and quaint to have to rely on Apple to review an app - much better to just have an open public repo and let the community deal with quality review. I'm yet to be bitten by a repo - I can't count the number of times I've had my life quality reduced to smithereens because I've had to pass multiple App Store reviews to get my apps out there, or found that an App I needed in order to do my work was no longer available because Apple changed something and broke it.

Repositories are simply a far superior technology.

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