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Comment by PhasmaFelis | Hacker News Reader

An occasional random death at work is statistically inevitable. Six deaths in as many months is something else.

A week before Billy Foister died of a heart attack, he went to the onsite clinic complaining of chest pains. They said he was dehydrated and told him to drink some water and go back to work. The article links to the NCOSH Dirty Dozen report, which describes a well-documented history of Amazon mistreating sick and injured employees. http://nationalcosh.org/sites/default/files/uploads/2019_Dir...

Don't write this off as a series of unfortunate coincidences.

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> Six deaths in as many months is something else.

It says "Six worker deaths in seven months; 13 deaths since 2013."

It doesn't go into any detail as to whether these workers actually died on the job. Six out of ~125,000 warehouse workers in one year would be double the average[1] (over all professions), but 13 out of ~100,000 over six years would be quite low.

> A week before Billy Foister died of a heart attack, he went to the onsite clinic complaining of chest pains. They said he was dehydrated and told him to drink some water and go back to work.

That sounds like medical malpractice, should be investigated on its own merits.

> Don't write this off as a series of unfortunate coincidences.

Yes, but also don't declare it a scandal before the facts are on the table.

[1] https://www.bls.gov/news.release/pdf/cfoi.pdf

> It says "Six worker deaths in seven months; 13 deaths since 2013." It doesn't go into any detail as to whether these workers actually died on the job.

One might reasonably assume that an article about workplace deaths isn't counting employees who slipped in the shower at home. But we don't have to assume: the linked Dirty Dozen list published in April 2019 says "Six workers have died at U.S. Amazon facilities or operations since November 2018." Six on-the-job deaths in six months, November to April. Not all of them were in warehouses, but all of them were preventable.

It also mentions (direct quotes):

* a high incidence of suicide attempts

* workers urinating in bottles because they are afraid to take breaks

* workers left without resources or income after on-the-job injuries

* the company treated illness as a “misdemeanor,” assigning a point that could have led to dismissal when [an undercover investigator] took a sick day

This is not a few bad apples. This is systematic.

> One might reasonably assume that an article about workplace deaths isn't counting employees who slipped in the shower at home.

I disagree. With these kinds of sources, you can't reasonably assume this.

> But we don't have to assume: the linked Dirty Dozen list published in April 2019 says "Six workers have died at U.S. Amazon facilities or operations since November 2018." Six on-the-job deaths in six months, November to April. Not all of them were in warehouses, but all of them were preventable.

You're right, I should have paid more attention, because those deaths aren't Amazon employees at all and none of them are warehouse workers:

- Andrew Lindsayand Israel Espana Argote, contract workers, died when the wall of an Amazon warehouse collapsed during a severe storm in Baltimore in November 2018.

- Brien James Dauntfell to his death during construction of an Amazon warehouse in Oildale, CA in January 2019. Falls from a height are a well-known –and preventable –hazard in the construction industry, with long-established protocols to reduce risks. CalOSHA is investigating the incident.

- Aviators Ricky Blakely,Conrad Jules Askaand Sean Archuletadied in February when an Air Atlas plane, carrying cargo for Amazon, crashed into Trinity Bay, southeast of Texas. Blakely and Aska worked for Air Atlas and were members of the Airline Professional Association (APA), Teamsters Local 224. The National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB) is investigating the incident.

None of these incidents hint at negligence on the part of Amazon.

This also explains why over the period of several years, Amazon workplace fatalities were well below average: They counted those properly. Working at Amazon is actually very safe, statistically speaking.

> those deaths aren't Amazon employees at all

> None of these incidents hint at negligence on the part of Amazon.

Whether their paycheck is signed by Amazon directly or through a contracting service is irrelevant. Amazon is responsible for the firms it hires to run its operations, and the rules and standards it requires them to meet. If Amazon contractors are chronically negligent, then Amazon is negligent.

> Amazon is responsible for the firms it hires to run its operations, and the rules and standards it requires them to meet.

I don't disagree that Amazon has some responsibility here, but within reason. No evidence has been presented that Amazon has been neglectful. Accidents happen even in the safest of environments, but you also can't expect Amazon (or any other company) hiring a contractor to supervise them 100% of the time. It can't work that way.

> If Amazon contractors are chronically negligent, then Amazon is negligent.

Again, there is no known indicator that Amazon was being negligent in these cases, otherwise that would've been put forth. Whether or not such indicators will turn up during investigation, Amazon is already on that list. That's plain dishonesty.

Re the 6 deaths in as many months:

http://nationalcosh.org/sites/default/files/uploads/2019_Dir...

>All six workers who died at Amazon facilities and operations during the past six months were employees of other firms or contract workers, rather than full-time Amazon employees.

● Andrew Lindsay and Israel Espana Argote, contract workers, died when the wall of an Amazon warehouse collapsed during a severe storm in Baltimore in November 2018.

● Brien James Daunt fell to his death during construction of an Amazon warehouse in Oildale, CA in January 2019. Falls from a height are a well-known – and preventable – hazard in the construction industry, with long-established protocols to reduce risks. CalOSHA is investigating the incident.

● Aviators Ricky Blakely, Conrad Jules Aska and Sean Archuleta died in February when an Air Atlas plane, carrying cargo for Amazon, crashed into Trinity Bay, southeast of Texas. Blakely and Aska worked for Air Atlas and were members of the Airline Professional Association (APA), Teamsters Local 224. The National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB) is investigating the incident.

> All six workers who died at Amazon facilities and operations during the past six months were employees of other firms or contract workers, rather than full-time Amazon employees.

That changes nothing. They were working to Amazon's rules at Amazon operations. Amazon bears responsibility for the firms they choose to work with and the requirements they give them.

Okay, sure but contractors dying in accidents at a work site is a hugely different narrative than "Amazon is working their warehouse staff... to death" which is what is currently happening.

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