The outcry over deaths on Amazon's warehouse floor
theguardian.com
theguardian.com
Quitting that company was such a relief to myself, and cutting ties with everything Amazon was at least important to me. I cannot morally support a company that treats their employees in such a way.
I work in a corp office where the coffee is far worse than many FCs I've been to.
They do at least get the coffee, and it's awful as expected.
https://bits.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/09/19/inside-amazons-ver...
https://nypost.com/2018/04/16/amazon-warehouse-workers-pee-i...
https://www.theverge.com/2019/4/25/18516004/amazon-warehouse...
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/amazon-used-...
https://www.ft.com/content/b0c22a35-f553-39ec-8b89-d5986d02b...
It's a shame, because there was so much I loved about the culture in AWS.
Also, some people care enough to sign their names next to quotes in support of warehouse worker strikes: https://medium.com/@amazonemployeesclimatejustice/quotes-of-...
I don’t think it’s “flaming” to inquire more or less the same thing they did of the original poster, especially since they stake out public support around these issues as some kind of litmus test.
With that in consideration, one has to ask whether they're also astroturfing HN...
The whole situation is shitty to be sure, and encouraging employees to defend you from Twitter mobs is stupid, but holy shit did a lot of people get baited hard during that whole ordeal.
I've been here for about three years, never saw any of that.
● Facebook contracts with outside companies for low-paid moderators who remove objectionable content from its global social network
● “Every day, every minute… heads being cut off” Moderators review hundreds of posts during a shift – including hate speech, pornography, and images of suicides, murders and beheadings
● A former employee says: “I don’t think it’s possible to do the job and not come out of it with some acute stress disorder or PTSD.”
I know nothing at all about this org:
http://nationalcosh.org/sites/default/files/uploads/2019_Dir...
There are all sorts of companies (most of them small because you can't do this kind of thing at scale without being sued) that put their employees in actually dangerous situations. There are nursing homes and hospitals that make the untrained janitor clean up bodily fluids (more than just your normal crap on the bathroom wall). There are construction operations where all sorts of safety corners are cut in the name of time. Industrial facilities where the maintenance and repair staff put themselves in danger in order to minimize downtime. Examples like that abound. And then there's all the wage theft (that I'm ignoring because we're talking physical danger here).
I'm not saying Amazon et al don't run their employees as hard as they can get away with but if you're gonna pick a dozen companies that are the worst the ones that are at least in the gray area of complying with the law shouldn't make the list.
Edit "totally" is probably too strong of a word by the general point I'm making stands.
Do any of the down-voters care to explain why they disagree? I'm genuinely curious as to why this is such an unacceptable opinion around here.
Anyway, it has some interesting info. “903 Latinx workers died on the job in 2017 representing a 15 percent increase since 2012, and 17 percent of all U.S. fatalities from workplace trauma.”
As the linked document mentions, there are very few OSHA inspectors. You’re very unlikely to have any sort of real OSHA enforcement at a small business in the US.
At a large employer, they often at least recognize and attempt to follow safety regulations. At a small business it is not at all uncommon for management to not care or even be aware that regulations exist.
Looking back at my years at a warehouse run by a small business, I didn’t realize how dangerous the things were that I was doing at the time, but pretty much every task I had involved an OSHA violation. It was just the way things worked, and it wasn’t any different than any other nearby businesses.
I'm simply pointing out that smaller businesses get away with much more (many operating without any compliance mechanisms whatsoever), and are able to continue to do so with almost zero scrutiny.
He has a tendency to get a little purple with his prose, but if you can get past that it's a good precis of low pay jobs.
Here's a link to the Goodreads page. https://www.goodreads.com/en/book/show/37780792-hired
I'm wondering if this opens up Amazon to more regulatory scrutiny, or even punitive settlements in the future. Something like this seems like actual evidence for very negative patterns of behavior.
This seems like a new kind of "hostile workplace environment" - one where your workplace will ignore your medical needs if an accident occurs. I just wonder if this is just some older pattern that's repeating itself, it's just not widely known.
Place was nicely put together though: all the screws and bolts tight, racks and tracks level and properly aligned, sensors everywhere on the production line ready to alert of any problem. So kudos to the guys and gals who put it together and lined it up! Looks like the U.S. Army put it together (well, actually, if the Army did it, it would be use better parts and be more sturdily constructed).
As for what it does, nothing there of interest to high tech.
> delayed medical attention to a warehouse worker during a cardiac arrest
I'm not trying to say that Amazon warehouses are a good place to work for, but if you want to be taken seriously make an effort to bring meaningful numbers.
How many workers work at Amazon's warehouses ? 6 out of 125,000 [0] seems like a rather low rate
Were there any laws or regulations broken ?
What is expected from a nominal workplace before and when a worker suffers from a heart condition ?
[0] https://www.theverge.com/2019/4/25/18516004/amazon-warehouse...
Also, do you work or are you paid for by Amazon? It's known they pay people to say how great it is to work at Amazon on e.g. twitter - not dystopian at all. I get really paranoid whenever someone jumps to the defense (or in your case sows doubt about an accusation towards) of a major corporation which can afford to both halve workload and double wages of all of their employees without having to worry about their bottom line too much.
Not saying they shouldn’t be fixing this problem, just that it seems like a problem even the most perfectly humane company could easily have.
And you might want to check your paranoia. It doesn’t make you a reliable source of opinion to flat-out say you don’t believe anything made in defense of your predetermined villains.
Amazon barely makes any profit, you may have heard. It’s completely wrong to claim they could halve the work and double the wages. Such assertions make you come across as delusional and biased.
Um... no. Accounting and tax wise, sure. But reality, no. If you dividend out all your "profit" before quarterlies to exec wages, you didn't make a profit. Amazon invested all profits into expansion. Thus, no profit. But they do make "a profit". These are the simple methods of not paying taxes. Tax dodging. It's a brand new thing. No one has ever done it before, let me tell ya'. There are better loopholes out there. I'd use the technical terms, but you're also under the illusion that Amazon is a non-profit. Might as well not bother.
>Considering how many blind spots their warehouses
He collapsed on camera. That's the opposite of a blind spot.
> the most perfectly humane company could easily have.
Misplaced item viewed on camera, 2 minute response time.
Collapse on camera, 20+ minute response time.
If they responded in the same amount of time as the item mistake, he literally could have survived the heart attack.
> “How can you not see a 6ft3in man laying on the ground and not help him within 20 minutes? A couple of days before, he put the wrong product in the wrong bin and within two minutes management saw it on camera and came down to talk to him about it,” Edward Foister said.
Amazon management was able to identify via a camera that the deceased individual previously put an item into the wrong bin and act within two minutes to speak to him about the mistake. Why can’t Amazon management use a security camera to detect the same individual laying on the ground and get to him in two minutes?
Yes, this quote is from that of the deceased individual’s brother, but Amazon could easily confirm, or refute this account.
They certainly should do better and make appropriate changes to practices but at that scale it would require something systemic by definition whether it is adding a tighter employee welfare patrols or say emergency fall detection gadgets that ask if they are okay and if not responded to within a certain time call for aid or similar.
And yet somehow Bezos has over a hundred billion dollars and a space program. Where did that come from if not profit? The fact that it doesn't go in the box marked "profit" on the accounts doesn't mean that it isn't the extraction of surplus value.
You know, it just might be considered a little bit irresponsible to construct a physically demanding worksite where someone can have a major medical problem and not be noticed.
From the HN Guidelines:
"Please don't post insinuations about astroturfing, shilling, brigading, foreign agents and the like. It degrades discussion and is usually mistaken. If you're worried about abuse, email us and we'll look at the data."
Timeliness and telling other people to just ignore what's going on and keep working... other companies give people the day off or quarantine the area. It's a pretty fucked up situation for a lot of people. This isn't the military. It's a warehouse fulfilling movies and other useless junk that half the customers don't even remember ordering. There's no real mission to trudge through other than making sure Bezos can buy something else shiny.
Do we actually know this? My impression is that only the poor responses would be reported on for us to see.
Can it really take nearly 0.1% of the US workforce just to deliver online goods? And presumably that's an under-estimate, because it doesn't include most courier work.
I was sort of hoping that every item I order on amazon has only perhaps 30 seconds of human time going into it... Assuming I order 3 items/week, and am typical of US citizens, amazon ought to be able to serve everyone with 130k employees.
Which means you'll want 260k so you can make them all half-time and keep benefits to a minimum.
Edit: CNN says it takes a minute of human labor as of 2016 (https://money.cnn.com/2016/10/06/technology/amazon-warehouse...). And that's shelf to delivery truck, so there is plenty more in that process that it leaves out.
For example, sticking labels on a box could be entirely automated, with the only time use being 30 minutes to replace the printer once every million labels when it wears out.
Amazon is one of the most brutally efficient operations in world history. We read every week about workers afraid to take bathroom breaks, and according to the article here workers seem too busy to notice their coworkers dropping dead of heart attacks. The sentiment of us here at our keyboards saying "wow, I can't believe it takes more than 30 seconds to put my order in a box" seems really wrong.
Oh sweet summer child, no. Humans drive the truck to the FC, humans unload the truck and stack the pallets, humans move the pallets, humans unstack the pallets for the stowers, humans stow the goods, humans pick the goods, humans pack the goods, humans deliver the goods. Actual automation is limited only to what is cost-effective, and human labor is more cost effective than automation in most cases.
Also, keep in mind that there are truck drivers, vending supply stockers, safety specialists, IT folks, etc supporting the whole operation.
Hourly wage workers do not have the time, or runway to protest.
The deaths are only witnessed by a handful of workers, as their zones are spread very far out in these enormous warehouses. Word of mouth flows very slowly as a result.
During their shifts, workers are lonely and interact with more robots than other humans.
To be fair, some of us prefer it that way.
I also suspect that if you’re working in a hellish warehouse, it’s probably more of act of desperation than a career choice.
Anecdotally, the people I know who work at an Amazon warehouse tell me that the safety protections there are better (and pay higher) than the other options they had.
Yeah, in just 45784512 minutes. Actually less, but 20 minutes is not minutes when it comes to heart attacks.
Any large employer will have people die on the job.
Yes, it's possible to sustain a person in a technically animated state for a few minutes after vital systems have crashed.
Presumably, the times when medical attention was given immediately aren't reported.
https://www.businessinsider.com/what-is-karoshi-japanese-wor...
(Which I not commentary on the article under discussion per se. Please don't infer such.)
(Edited for clarity.)
A week before Billy Foister died of a heart attack, he went to the onsite clinic complaining of chest pains. They said he was dehydrated and told him to drink some water and go back to work. The article links to the NCOSH Dirty Dozen report, which describes a well-documented history of Amazon mistreating sick and injured employees. http://nationalcosh.org/sites/default/files/uploads/2019_Dir...
Don't write this off as a series of unfortunate coincidences.
It says "Six worker deaths in seven months; 13 deaths since 2013."
It doesn't go into any detail as to whether these workers actually died on the job. Six out of ~125,000 warehouse workers in one year would be double the average[1] (over all professions), but 13 out of ~100,000 over six years would be quite low.
> A week before Billy Foister died of a heart attack, he went to the onsite clinic complaining of chest pains. They said he was dehydrated and told him to drink some water and go back to work.
That sounds like medical malpractice, should be investigated on its own merits.
> Don't write this off as a series of unfortunate coincidences.
Yes, but also don't declare it a scandal before the facts are on the table.
One might reasonably assume that an article about workplace deaths isn't counting employees who slipped in the shower at home. But we don't have to assume: the linked Dirty Dozen list published in April 2019 says "Six workers have died at U.S. Amazon facilities or operations since November 2018." Six on-the-job deaths in six months, November to April. Not all of them were in warehouses, but all of them were preventable.
It also mentions (direct quotes):
* a high incidence of suicide attempts
* workers urinating in bottles because they are afraid to take breaks
* workers left without resources or income after on-the-job injuries
* the company treated illness as a “misdemeanor,” assigning a point that could have led to dismissal when [an undercover investigator] took a sick day
This is not a few bad apples. This is systematic.
I disagree. With these kinds of sources, you can't reasonably assume this.
> But we don't have to assume: the linked Dirty Dozen list published in April 2019 says "Six workers have died at U.S. Amazon facilities or operations since November 2018." Six on-the-job deaths in six months, November to April. Not all of them were in warehouses, but all of them were preventable.
You're right, I should have paid more attention, because those deaths aren't Amazon employees at all and none of them are warehouse workers:
- Andrew Lindsayand Israel Espana Argote, contract workers, died when the wall of an Amazon warehouse collapsed during a severe storm in Baltimore in November 2018.
- Brien James Dauntfell to his death during construction of an Amazon warehouse in Oildale, CA in January 2019. Falls from a height are a well-known –and preventable –hazard in the construction industry, with long-established protocols to reduce risks. CalOSHA is investigating the incident.
- Aviators Ricky Blakely,Conrad Jules Askaand Sean Archuletadied in February when an Air Atlas plane, carrying cargo for Amazon, crashed into Trinity Bay, southeast of Texas. Blakely and Aska worked for Air Atlas and were members of the Airline Professional Association (APA), Teamsters Local 224. The National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB) is investigating the incident.
None of these incidents hint at negligence on the part of Amazon.
This also explains why over the period of several years, Amazon workplace fatalities were well below average: They counted those properly. Working at Amazon is actually very safe, statistically speaking.
> None of these incidents hint at negligence on the part of Amazon.
Whether their paycheck is signed by Amazon directly or through a contracting service is irrelevant. Amazon is responsible for the firms it hires to run its operations, and the rules and standards it requires them to meet. If Amazon contractors are chronically negligent, then Amazon is negligent.
I don't disagree that Amazon has some responsibility here, but within reason. No evidence has been presented that Amazon has been neglectful. Accidents happen even in the safest of environments, but you also can't expect Amazon (or any other company) hiring a contractor to supervise them 100% of the time. It can't work that way.
> If Amazon contractors are chronically negligent, then Amazon is negligent.
Again, there is no known indicator that Amazon was being negligent in these cases, otherwise that would've been put forth. Whether or not such indicators will turn up during investigation, Amazon is already on that list. That's plain dishonesty.
http://nationalcosh.org/sites/default/files/uploads/2019_Dir...
>All six workers who died at Amazon facilities and operations during the past six months were employees of other firms or contract workers, rather than full-time Amazon employees.
● Andrew Lindsay and Israel Espana Argote, contract workers, died when the wall of an Amazon warehouse collapsed during a severe storm in Baltimore in November 2018.
● Brien James Daunt fell to his death during construction of an Amazon warehouse in Oildale, CA in January 2019. Falls from a height are a well-known – and preventable – hazard in the construction industry, with long-established protocols to reduce risks. CalOSHA is investigating the incident.
● Aviators Ricky Blakely, Conrad Jules Aska and Sean Archuleta died in February when an Air Atlas plane, carrying cargo for Amazon, crashed into Trinity Bay, southeast of Texas. Blakely and Aska worked for Air Atlas and were members of the Airline Professional Association (APA), Teamsters Local 224. The National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB) is investigating the incident.
That changes nothing. They were working to Amazon's rules at Amazon operations. Amazon bears responsibility for the firms they choose to work with and the requirements they give them.
He collapsed on camera. 20+ minute response.
Completely ridiculous. Look at the list:
http://nationalcosh.org/sites/default/files/uploads/2019_Dir...
In five out of these twelve, nobody actually died.
Those may be shitty jobs/companies, but they're not exceptionally dangerous - especially not Amazon.
This is spitting in the face of people who actually have dangerous jobs with exceptional risks:
https://eu.usatoday.com/story/money/2019/01/08/most-dangerou...