So I personally believe that these people simply could not find a better job with less moral dilemmas.
I live in Germany too, and my experience is quiet contrary to yours. Of course you won't always work for a company that "saves the planet", but surely people care about good morals when looking for a job, and some companies even adjust to that. A lot of my former and current colleagues quit jobs just because the companies they were working for were always prioritizing profit over morals, or they declined well paid jobs because they just didn't like the companies general business strategy.
Don't get me wrong though: of course you can't be super picky and always get a dream, green, social improvement focused job. That's not how it works.
Still: I would never want to work for a company that provides surveillance services for shady regimes.
a) Take the one job you've been offered right now, in your location, doing evil things
b) You and your extended family starve and die
Sorry, I'm just not buying it. What actually happens is that people decide that it's convenient to ignore the moral issues for a bit more comfort; basically, they "don't care".
There does exist some vanishingly small fraction of people on the boundary of homelessness for which they literally have to do everything to survive. I don't believe that this is a large group in Germany and I doubt anyone intelligent and healthy enough to be a professional software developer is in that group.
If you want to maximize earnings, go for it. You're only lying to yourself if you pretend it's the only option, though.
a) Take the one job you've been offered right now, in your location, doing evil things
b) fail to cover your mortgage payment this month and your house is foreclosed on.
That choice is a lot more likely than just "you die". And the choice between bending your morals and losing your house is still a hard one.
_(I don't know how mortgages and foreclosures and the like work in Germany, I'm just giving an example that I'm familiar with)_
It has the potential to make you a slave, as you illustrate in your example.
These things don't just happen. If you stand up for what you believe in then perhaps you get fewer toys.
It is how it is. I'd rather be poor and stand up for what I believe in than rich and a dickhead. YMMV.
The fact that someone has sunk costs does not give them a pass.
Are you implying that you shouldn't take out a mortgage that you can't pay off without a job? That makes no sense at all. I'll admit you shouldn't take out a mortgage that you will default on if you're out of work for 1 month, but plenty of people wind up out of work for longer periods of time.
I won't give hard figures because really this mortgage example is just one of many. It's a basic principles thing.
Poor people living hand to mouth have no choice. A qualified software developer really does.
If you mortgage yourself to the hilt and have two kids you can barely afford, then you might well say "oh, my responsibility is towards my family now". Some people respect that.
I think it's bullshit. Anyone can increase their lifestyle to meet their income, pile up debts and then claim they just have to do whatever bossman says because otherwise it'll all unravel.
And anyone can go from doing well to living in their car.
When I was younger, I was doing well for myself. I wasn't in debt, I rented (no mortgage), happily newly married. And then the economy dropped out from under me and I lost everything. My job, all my savings, etc. We had less than a month of (cheap) rent left in the bank. Eventually, my wife and I had to move so she could take a job further away. She was still in grad school and had to travel 90 minutes each way to meet with people at the school. That was because I couldn't find a job that would support us (after over a year of looking). We didn't have to compromise our morals, but we did have to make a decision that sucked for us. Because shitty things happen.
My family and I are back in a good place now. But I recognize that somethings things fall apart no matter how well you plan, and I don't judge people based on the decisions that felt they had to make at such times. I may disagree with their decisions, but I don't believe they are bad people because of them.
If you get a chance, watch The Wave. It's a good example of how sometimes even normal "not bad" people can wind up making bad decisions.
I'm glad you found your way through what sounds like a tough situation.
I draw my line somewhere, so does everyone.
The choice is not between wanky surveillance defence jobs and going full hippie and living in the forest.
To address the ad hominem: my personal attitude is to use the money I get from software dev for philanthropy. We earn a lot and have a duty to help the world. Noblesse oblige at a smaller scale.
I don't work at FANG because I think advertising is evil. This is a fairly common viewpoint on HN and hardly unique.
I get what you're saying but I think you're just playing devil's advocate.
Yeah, I actually do personally struggle with this. The vast majority of companies do, indeed, sell and produce shit we don't need, often to the detriment of society at large (they may temporarily benefit individuals).
I am concerned with the climate too. I consume products that have embodied CO2 emissions. Because it's literally impossible to not do so in the modern world. That doesn't mean just throwing my hands up and saying "lol fuck it, there is no moral high ground" and buying a Hummer, y'know?
I am free to pass judgement on people who do bad things, and I will continue to do so. I expect people to do the same of me. This is the process by which we evolve as a race. It's big girl time now, there are 7 billion of us and we've collectively attained demi-god status in terms of our ability to affect the fabric of the world around us.
We _need_ to learn a way to put the collective before the individual or we are going to comprehensively fuck ourselves.
In general, software developers have no problem at all with finding a job (or clients as a freelancer).
Knowing where and how to find leads, how to convert them into prospects and clients, how to negotiate, how to scope out a project, how to appropriately push back against scope creep and how to manage a pipeline of future projects are all important skills if you're freelancing (and not using a "race to the bottom" platform).
I was looking for a job in software development for a very long time (region: quite everywhere in Germany or Austria). As of today, I "only" found a job in a very different sector (which is not a bad job, but it hardly has anything to do with software development). And yes, I know quite some people in Germany who also had lots of difficulties finding a job in software development.
I also claim to know more about IT security than my CV suggests (I got one job interview for a job in this sector, and afterwards the interviewer told me that I have far too much knowledge in this area to be suitable for the available jobs; "you belong into academia").
The same holds, I believe, for embedded programming, where I also think to know quite a lot. Why am I so sure about it? Because as a hobby, I worked on reverse-engineering the firmware of some quite non-trivial embedded device.
I also think that I have an immense knowledge of arcane details of the instruction encodings of various CPU architectures, but this is merely a hobby of mine and useless for the job market.
--
There exist lots of people who seriously could not understand how I could not find a job as a programmer. For example quite some doctoral classmates (who could find a job in software development) called me a "wandering encyclopedia of the history of computer science".
--
As I said: I found a job in a sector that is very different from software development. Just don't tell me that it is easy to find a job in software development; it isn't, even if you are willing to relocate anywhere in Germany or Austria. And I know quite some people who have the same experience.
Let me put it this way: I am more of a deep thinker than a fast thinker and (to put it in mathematical terms) more of a theory maker than a problem solver (i.e. I prefer Alexander Grothendieck over Paul Erdős, even though, of course, both were great mathematicians).
So, I was not capable to solve the hard algorithmic problem that think-cell had in their programming test in the given 9 hours; not for a lack of C++ skills, but for a lack of experience in developing "crazy" data structures and rather being a deep thinker/theory maker instead of a fast thinker/problem solver.
If you compare mathematical style of the mentioned Alexander Grothendieck and Paul Erdős, you will sense that they represent very different styles of doing mathematics. That is what I am referring to.
But I actually did solve some really hard algorithmic questions in my doctoral thesis - they are just of a very different kind than the "algorithmic brainteasers" that seem to be common in job interviews in the Silicon Valley.
The things recruiters told you ("not sufficiently pragmatic" or that you belong in academia)... they didn't tell you this to talk down to you but to give you hints.
I would have loved to stay in academia. The problem, why I left academia is the infamous Wissenschaftszeitvertragsgesetz, which gives you an employment ban on temporary contracts in academia after 6+6 years. Since nearly every employment contract in science is temporary, this actually implies a nearly complete employment ban in science after at most 12 years.
Link in german:
https://www.forschung-und-lehre.de/die-zehn-haeufigsten-irrt...
Nr 3
Deep thinking is what we look for.
However, FinFisher seems to be located in Munich and it is easy to find a software developer job in Munich.
You can do contract work and travel a lot, but that isn't for everyone.
Of course the lower pay is still enough to make a good living, but it certainly isn't anywhere near 6-figure jobs.
Though I am not software developer, but I get also some recruiter offers every week. I was interested in changing jobs and starting talking to these recruiters. Max offers were at €60k what is a bad joke for Munich. Many offers that start negotiations as employment end as contract for 6 months.
Before writing here, that changing jobs in Germany is easy, talk to these “recruiters”. Get other work contract with negotiated salary ~€100k for Munich every week. I doubt this will happen soon again.
Doesn't sound like a principled stance.
Basically it rounds down to: they would consider a more ethical job, but it's their last priority, well behind a good salary and nice benefits...
(It's understandable of course, just not principled)
>The difference between $100k a year and $60k a year is enormous.
Principles shouldn't depend on that though. Else "Yeah, I'd help kill kids and kittens for $1m" would also be an acceptable answer. $1m is also enormous compared to $100k.
Decent people have made much bigger sacrifices that living with $60K a year for doing the right thing...
Doesn't have to be black and white. In fact, it's anything but. You can get a lesser job, with, as you said, 60K instead of $100K, and still take the principled stance. Black and white would be more like having to either work for the surveillance company selling to authoritarian regimes, or starving.
Losing your perks is not a "black or white" ethical choice.
>And job market would be fair with unlimited opportunities everywhere.
If they can only be good if they have nothing to give up for choosing so, and only when there are "unlimited opportunities" to ensure that choosing the more ethical job doesn't hurt their salary at all, then they shouldn't bother...