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Comment by kevindong | Hacker News Reader

> If that works out well, then, you are invited to do a trial, where you work alongside an Automatic team for a period of 1-3 months for ~10 hours per week. This trial is paid with 25 Dollars per hour.

$25/hour for a professional software developer is kind of insulting. Particularly so if Automattic is looking the same tier of talent as the top tech companies.

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Keep in mind that Automattic is a remote company.

Maybe $25 per hour won't attract local talent from silicon valley, but there's a huge global market of talented engineers that would happily apply to work remote at a company like Automattic.

I don't know any developer who is excited to work for less than $40k/yr on the absolute lowest, closer to $60k/yr.

Let me do the math..

Oh wow, I didn't realize that $60k/yr is $28/hr. I guess this does make sense after all...

>I don't know any developer who is excited to work for less than $40k/yr on the absolute lowest

In my country, $40k/year is a super high salary, even the average senior developer wouldn't make that much.

This can be a problem with remote working. It's fine if you live where accommodation is cheap but if you're earning the same money living in a metropolis it doesn't add up.

But the companies in the metropolis either have to pay good wages relative to the metropolis or hire remote. This won't really be a problem until/unless we hit a tipping point in the number of companies hiring remote and I predict that will take decades (unless something drastic happens).

At 40 hours per week, 50 weeks per year, hourly times 2 is yearly in kilobucks. Eg: $10/hr is 20k/year.

For anybody else:

$10/hr = $20k/yr

$20/hr = $40k/yr

$30/hr = $60k/yr

$40/hr = $80k/yr

$50/hr = $100k/yr

$60/hr = $120k/yr

$70/hr = $140k/yr

$80/hr = $160k/yr

$90/hr = $180k/yr

$100/hr = $200k/yr

$110/hr = $220k/yr

$120/hr = $240k/yr

$130/hr = $260k/yr

$140/hr = $280k/yr

$150/hr = $300k/yr

$160/hr = $320k/yr

$170/hr = $340k/yr

$180/hr = $360k/yr

$190/hr = $390k/yr

$200/hr = $400k/yr

>I don't know any developer who is excited to work for less than $40k/yr on the absolute lowest,

And let me tell you there are developers barely making one fifth of it.

It really depends which country you're from, it doesn't make much sense to throw around numbers.

Market structure also plays a big part in the final number, e.g. Switzerland or the US have much higher 'net' salaries (after taxes) but conversely must spend ~2x what more socialist markets like France or Germany have already included in taxes for various insurances (health, retirement, savings, etc) and rents (housing, commodities, subs...)

Some examples (loose statistics from memory but the gist is good)

In Zurich, Switzerland you can expect a net salary almost as high as the US or Asia (top 10 cities; I'd say it's 80% to all the way there, just less exponential because top paying jobs are not in Switzerland vs SF or HK).

In France, accross the border, you can expect between 25-60K€ (junior-senior) if not in Paris, bump to 35-80K€ there. It goes higher, but you're much better off starting a small contractor/consulting business (being 'sponsored' by ex-company is a thing in France for top dogs) if you want mid-six figures.

I guess, but then how are developers in first world countries supposed to pay the rent? If a company wants to source all their developers from third world countries maybe they shouldn't be allowed to list their stock in first world exchanges. Seems fair, no?

They can take some other job which will presumably pay more? Nobody's forcing them to work for $25/hour.

Except if we outsource all the jobs...Likewise, no one would be forcing Automattic to list on a first world exchange - there are many other ones where they could be free to float their stock. How come all's fair for labor, but not for capital?

Exactly. In the long game remote = outsourcing = race to the bottom. Marx saw it coming a long time ago.

Not at all - both sides benefit from trade. And also 3rd world investors buy a big part of that stock (including a part of my savings).

AFAIK developers in the first world still get better than the average salaries.

Looking at the current exchange rates, I don't earn a huge amount more than this, and I have a mortgage, support my partner and child financially, and live very comfortably in a city in a first world country. Admittedly one with non-insane healthcare, and not in a capital city/city where house prices are sky high, but still.

In Finland 25$ per hour would be way higher than average wage. Finland is very much a first world country.

IMHO, this is much better than giving an exercise for test. They are talking about 10 hours per week. So $1000 for four weekends (while keeping your existing job) is quite attractive for anyone trying to get entry into tech space.

I would imagine many (not from 'traditional' academic background, or fresh out of some unknown college, etc.) would do this for free for a decent shot at getting hired in a well known tech company.

For entry level (probably for interns, maybe for new grads), it makes some sense. But asking any American developer with >= 1 year of experience to do this would be kind of crazy.

Actually here in Finland that's an ok rate for employeed professional software engineers, if the employer pays the pension fund charges etc mandated stuff.I imagine it's even better offer for lower income countries with top talent (Romania etc).

I think that PHP developers tend to get a lower hourly rate due to the larger supply of PHP developers. I also suspect that PHP development has a reputation for being a lower tier of quality, perhaps unfairly, and that can also push the price down.

Facebook would be the major counterexample for your hypothesis.

To an American sure. I know people in NZ paid less than that.

"To that end, as we reviewed our hiring process, we realized that the demographics of people we attract to apply are not inline with the demographics of the people we hope to hire."

If that's there attitude then fuck them. You can guess which demographic they are talking about.

https://cate.blog/2019/05/15/addressing-hiring-gaps-through-...

Having a demographic you “hope to hire” should be flatly illegal.

Last time I posted this I received hate in response. Guess I'm not woke enough,

Am I understanding correctly from the last paragraph that they are looking for women and trans/non-traditional gender or sexual orienting folk?

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