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Comment by whack | Hacker News Reader

> I really think with a proper full time job working long hours its unrealistic to spend much time on any side project. Its much healthier to try to spend time with friends and family, or hobbies. If you have young children there is little chance.

I hear this comment every time this topic comes up, and quite honestly, it is BS. If you're in the minority of people who are spending every waking hour productively, maybe this is true. But for the majority, it certainly isn't. I know plenty of people who spend >10-20 hours every week on:

- Watching TV

- Surfing the web

- Playing games

- Watching sports

- Going camping/hiking etc

- Weekend trips

- Fishing

- etc etc etc

When someone suggests hiking, reading and meditation as a good way to spend your free time, everyone nods along and talks about how wonderful it is. But when someone talks about building a side-project, suddenly everyone has twin babies and elderly parents with dementia who are taking up every waking minute.

There's nothing wrong with any of the other alternatives listed above. If you're burnt out from coding, go ahead and do whatever gives you happiness and satisfaction. But please acknowledge that building side-projects is eminently realistic, and for some people, will give far more happiness and satisfaction than binging netflix.

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Building a side project is work, spending time with family, camping, going on trips isn't.

It's not so much that we can't accept that some people enjoy working, it's that they're screwing their health. There is no free lunch, staring at monitors for years on end will take its toll.

Gaming and watching TV aren't healthy for computer workers either.

I hate this attitude. It's the same attitude that anything that happens on a computer is work because someone uses a computer at work. I also use chairs and desks and toilets at work and I eat food at work and talk to people at work and walk to diffenent places at work so I guess walking, sitting, talking to people, pooping etc all all work.

No, rather a computer is a general purpose device on which I can make music, listen to music, edit video, watch moives, learn a new language, look up recipies, talk to friends, chat with experts on all kinds of topics. I don't stop using the computer "because I use it at work"

The same is true of programming and side progects. Programming is not work. Programming is something I do at work like I alos talk to people at work, sit at work, walk at work, eat at work, write emails at work, chat at work.

Programming is also a fun activity in and of itself I get lots of enjoyment out of just like I get enjoyment from those other things. That fact that I do it at work as ZERO influence on my enjoyment of it. I might not enjoy certain things I do at work but that has nothing to do with "programming" and everything to do with goals or don't believe in or busy work for the sake of busy work or having to do things someway I don't agree with, all of which disappear on my own stuff.

> Programming is also a fun activity in and of itself I get lots of enjoyment out of just like I get enjoyment from those other things. That fact that I do it at work as ZERO influence on my enjoyment of it

I think that's totally awesome =]

However in the post itself, the reasons listed for doing a side project include making money and learning new skills. One of those things is literally the thing that defines work, and the other is something that many would assume is for work.

I believe that's where this animosity towards the expectation of side projects comes from. If you want to do it and would do it without any benefits to your career, then definitely it is purely fun and in the same class as meditation or hanging out with friends. However, if you argue that you should do it to make money, personally I would say that's no longer in the same class of things as hanging out with friends.

Indeed programming for the sake of learning and programming for the sake of enjoyment are two different things I'd say. It's like when people comment how it must be so relaxing to practice piano; no it's probably fun and relaxing to play but practicing is very boring and frustrating.

we should just call it out as it is - companies that only hire people who have side projects just want cog employees who will prioritize that over literally every aspect of their life under the guise of "passion"

If I came home from band practice and spent all night writing music and playing my guitar, people would say "wow, that guy is so passionate and creative". But since my craft involves a computer, they instead say "you're going to burn yourself out. You should get a different hobby."

The computer is a tool. It's the tool that I use to create things, and that creativity gives me life. I don't think people without creative hobbies can really understand this.

Band practice isn't equivalent to music work. It would be more like being on tour, and coming home to play some more. Which I doubt musicians do. Most I've heard find touring pretty taxing.

From my musician friends too, I seldom see them ever spending more than 8 hours a day doing music. As music work isn't really 9 to 5 style.

Here we're talking having done an 8 to 10 hour day programming, Monday through Friday, and then spending even more once home and on weekends.

Now, I happen to be, maybe as you are, someone who is passionate about CS. So I do actually do it as a hobby and as work. I just don't believe everyone should, and I don't want to make it the norm that you have too, because if that was the case, my doing it as a hobby for myself would now become me doing it cause I have too for employability.

It's also not my only hobby, I found that when it was, it did in fact slowly overwork my mind. I'd slowly start sleeping later, waking earlier, having issues falling asleep because I'd always be thinking about my problems. A few hours before bed, switching to a non thinking hobby has been really nice for me.

I agree with you about the stigma though. I think if anything, I'd like to encourage non-programmers to pick up programming as a hobby. It's a great creative outlet, and the computer is a tool. It can be very rewarding and so much fun. Plus, for many, it could translate into a better career for them.

As a programmer though, I think it's just up to you, but definitely you shouldn't have too.

Just my opinion.

I don't think people in general can really understand this. Especially now that tablets and smartphones have achieved such success, computers are probably used mostly for work. Not necessarily a job, but tasks and duties.

The programming "interface" is more or less staring at text on a monitor and clicking on buttons. All the creative work is hidden and the interface is complete crap... How can that be perceived as fun or creative by someone looking from the outside?

Music making always had an aura of coolness, so even if a professional musician were to do that, maybe people would not see it as work.

...nobody is saying this.

I'm starting a new side project from scratch and wanted to explore new architectural approaches, heck, I can't sleep all night, because I'm so excited.

When you get money for programming, that's work, but programming in itself can be both fun and work. A side-project you do for yourself should be fun and exciting.

Taking time away from socializing and actually resting will eventually take its toll. I tried following the HN advice in this regard for a few years in the late oughts. Spending so much time working on programming and little else was lonely and punishing, even though I liked what I was working on.

Whether something's like work is also defined by one's profession. If you're a professional pooper, to take one of your examples, and you decided to do some pooping after work - that would count as work-like, because you're doing something very similar to your job.

Especially if it'a a side-project, which implies planning and goal setting. Of course if one is just aimlessly messing around then it becomes less like work.

I partially agree with you: The notion of "programming as a hobby" starts to fade for some once they're doing this professionally.

Since I'm working 40h/week as a software engineer I find much less motivation to do PC related stuff (this includes gaming). That was different, I used to do random programming after school just because I could. During university this became less. However, I do enjoy most of my work, so there is that. And this is why I originally started studying physics - I wanted to keep programming as a hobby, but figured out I probably wouldn't really enjoy working in physics and then switched to CS.

Regarding health: I think with this you're wrong. It depends on the "how much". Staring at a monitor 8h at work, driving home, stare at a TV/monitor another 6h munching fast food, go to bed, wake up, repeat; this is probably quite bad. But get home by bike or foot (if feasible), program/game/watch TV for an hour or two, go outside, do some sport, reduce unhealthy food, and you can probably get by quite fine.

> The notion of "programming as a hobby" starts to fade for some once they're doing this professionally.

Well, I still do code as hobby.

The thing is writing code for company is not always fun, for example, your company use React and you want to try Vue, the only way to do it is create hobby projects of your own.

And there are other benefits as well, for example, if your project is useful, it may open new opportunities for you, showcase your abilities, let you make friends and maybe even allow you to directly make money from it.

> I find much less motivation to do PC related stuff

Me too, sometimes. But personally I usually found the main reason for me to lost motivation is when I realized the project I'm working on is useless -- No body will use it even I released it, so I just stopped working on it.

But you know what, some of my abandoned code can be reused when I have new ideas, so I count all of it as sleeping gold (Or maybe sleeping bug, depends on production results :)

> Building a side project is work

I'd say it's nothing like work. There's no stress, no deadlines, no fixed hours, no team work, etc. For many people programming is a hobby, something that's fun and they are not paid to do, they don't do it for the money, but for self-fulfillment. Not everyone find that at work, and even if they do, they may choose to spend a few hours a week building something for themselves, to scratch an itch or whatever.

> It's not so much that we can't accept that some people enjoy working, it's that they're screwing their health. There is no free lunch, staring at monitors for years on end will take its toll.

I doubt 50hs of screen time is a lot worse than 40hs, but I'd need data to prove/disprove it. However, you don't even need to spend that much time, it could be just a few hours a week.

No stress??? That’s been my main issue with side projects. It feels stressful in the same way that work does. The stresses of piano or bike repair wear on a different part of my brain and body.

Sorry, I can only speak for myself.

I wrote about side projects here:

https://letterstoanewdeveloper.com/2019/08/02/personal-proje...

It seems to me that you can treat side projects like work, but you shouldn't. Side projects should be about scratching an itch that can't be done at work, whether that is the domain, technology or some other aspect.

If your side project is like work, pick a different side project.

If every side project is like work, as is so for some commenters, then take some time off from them. Or don't do them and forgo the benefits.

> Building a side project is work, spending time with family, camping, going on trips isn't.

No, work is work, side-project is a hobby,it's done for recreation, for example to do some stuff you can't find a reasonable excuse to do at work. To explore and enjoy yourself doing what you love. That's also the only reason to have one..

Doing _ANYTHING_ is work if you look at it wrong enough.

Work, as in effort, tasks, projects is opposed to leisure, as in peace & quiet, recreation and relaxation.

Work doesn't just refer to performing a job in exchange for money.

Even the term side-project contradicts the idea of leisure. It implies goals, a plan of action and tasks that have to be done.

Side projects are the only reason I'm able to continue working professionally precisely because they are not work. Everything about them is different from work. Programming is a great hobby and in my experience turning it into your job destroys it as a hobby. Working on a side project is to find a new avenue for programming as a hobby, so they you can continue programming for money because that's the most feasible way to make money as a programmer, but can also program freely without project managers, conflicting requirements, deadlines, slow/non-communicative/differently-visioned colleagues/customers/bosses on your side projects.

No, building a side project is fun. Camping, family, and trips are work.

Professional programming sometimes diminishes the passion, I have to have side projects to keep it alive.

To be fair, I consider going on trips and camping to be work.

But I agree, there are ways to balance things, but you have to choose. You can't have everything (work, side project, family, health, hobbies) at 100% and be the best version of your self long term.

>> Building a side project is work

I agree, but... I used to do them for fun, for the challenge, to learn, to prove to myself that I could do it.

I've recently been working on an existing open source project. I do so because I like the software and want it to be better. I also have the background to contribute in areas that haven't been touched in years. While its voluntary and feels like a side project, it's still work.

These things are all work, it's just a question of why we choose to do them. Maybe the other commenters that dont see it as work have a bit to learn about their own motivations?

Why should it be work?

Work is what I am paid for. Anything else is either your human needs or hobbies.

I prefer a colleague's response to my question whether he has side projects: I don't like to do the same as I do (at work) here when I am home.

It's an incorrect answer, but at least it doesn't imply side projects are work.

No it's not just what you're paid for, I've already clarified this for two other commenters.

Grab a dictionary and you'll see something along "activity involving mental or physical effort done in order to achieve a purpose or result".

Unless your side projects have no purpose or goals, they are a form of work and they require effort.

How is it different from playing music, reading books or DIY hobbies? I don't get it.

I don't understand why one thing is work and another isn't.

In my book, work is that which, when it stops being fun, you still have to do.

>Building a side project is work

for you it is, for me and many others its fun/hobby. This is why side projects are such a strong signal to competent recruiters -this person actually likes what he does and will put passion into his work.

Just cause someone codes for fun outside of work doesn't mean that they will put passion into their work. Furthermore, just because someone doesn't code for fun outside of work doesn't mean they won't put passion into their work.

I could even make a case that people who don't spend their free time coding make better employees than those who do - the employer wants the employee to spend their mental energy on work, not personal projects.

The vast majority of people who are going to give you a high quality 9-5 aren't going home to program, and it would be very bad business to discount them.

(The only person I knew of who coded outside of work was honestly a bad employee. I wouldn't use that case to discount others who code for fun outside of work.)

What the employer wants? You could give the employer everything they want for years and welcome yourself as outdated and underskilled for any other job. The employee needs to look out for what is best for the employee’s life. That only moderately aligns with what is best for the employer — often they are opposed. Jobs don’t typically last 35 years with the same company anymore. Skills need to be enhanced beyond what the current employer needs. Side project freedom gives you the power to pick any skills you want to enhance and run with it.

Heh. I used to put way too much effort into open source and side projects, and this made me a terrible employee -- I was always too tired at work, because I'd stay up late the night before, coding side projects!

Although that could be just me, I think it's a common problem.

I did a lot of development outside work, but then I had a kid. Something I realized a couple weeks ago (my son is almost two, so surprising I hadn't realized this before, but I think that shows my brain power) is that as a parent you learn to split your attention among numerous things.

I rarely watched TV, preferring to either do development or play video games (RPGs, action games with stories, as compared to FPS games). However, when you have a child you realize that, unless they're in bed for the night, you can't plan how much time you'll have to yourself. That's with one child and two parents.

When development, to me, is at least 30 minutes to remember where you left off and start being productive (unless you're monkeying around), and you don't know if you're going to have a child climbing on top of you in five minutes, even though he's totally into what he's doing now, you (or at least I) decide whether you want to try getting into the groove, likely to fail and then get frustrated, or find something you can do to be semi-productive.

After nine hours at work, plus helping get someone ready to go in the morning, plus getting him situated when he gets home, you're also mentally exhausted.

If you're doing your job right, your child is also on a schedule, which means that you're still getting up early in the morning, so staying up a few more hours is going to mean either being exhausted the next day (compounding issues) or wasting your weekend since you've been running yourself on empty all week.

I used to think the same thing as you. Then I had kids, and an expanded group of family and friends. And while you can say 'these three nights are times I need to focus on my needs,' realistically life doesn't always work that way. I wish it did, though. :|

Real life example: while typing this my son was in the other room. When I started to proofread my son had made his way into the kitchen and needed my hands. Now as I type this he's fine again. ~10 minutes of time, with a minute and a half break at about the 7 minute mark. Doesn't make it easy to keep my attention focused.

If you choose to code as a hobby that's fine. Nobody will stop you. The problem is when others say that I should do it. Or worse, when it becomes an expectation to get hired.

Here's the thing, all that other stuff you mentioned are things I can do with my family. Side projects aren't. I have trouble reading seriously now for the same reason; it is a solitary activity. But at least if I'm reading a book I can still pop out and participate in conversations; not so with programming.

The other important difference, and the reason there is always strong pushback when this topic comes up, is that many of us believe there is a subtext that people who spend a lot of time outside work on side projects are better employees. (I mean, it isn't even really subtext, it is in the text of the OP, and I've been reading the new edition of The Pragmatic Programmer, and it's in the text there as well.) If that view wins out (and in many circles it already has), then what you see as harmless, fun, and enriching side projects are actually a job requirement, one that is extremely hard for many of us to satisfy. So we (reasonably, I think!) push back on this view because we think we're good programmers and good employees without needing to spend our evenings doing solitary work away from our friends and families.

This comment really bothers me. The argument in the post is that a side project will fulfill you. Being told that if I really try I can fit in a few more hours of productive time and that a side project is what will fulfill me... 1) I don’t always want to be productive. 2) There are nearly as many ways to be fulfilled as there are people. So calling bs if that way isn’t a side project is immensely arrogant.

The (single? childless?) people you know, and yourself, can certainly choose how to spend your time, and nobody is saying otherwise.

I know plenty of people who spend every waking moment outside of work with family and friends, and a side project would mean choosing other things over those personal relationships.

Which, again, you can choose to do. I'm with the GP, though: I've done side projects, and even had one turn into something I sold, but for now I choose to spend time with my friends and family. Any TV I watch, I watch with my family. Any games I play, I play with them. Camping and hiking, I do with them or with friends. Weekend trips I take with them.

I used to feel the same... but once in corporate world, you already get exhausted by the mental pressure in office that you wouldn't want to think more on the same thing, logic, even if its your personal project. Coding is not physically exhausting, but it does use up your brain cells. And after 8-9 hours of screen time, after you reach home, you would definitely want some time off the screen, otherwise it ends up affecting your health.

Side project is still a continuation of what you do for 8 hours everyday. Other activities are not. If your job was to hike everyday and then someone proposed side-hiking when you are back from your main hiking activity, I'm sure you would say "I'd rather just spend some time writing code".

And what about cooks? Do they also overwork in their free time when they make their own food?

Yes actually. Based on some of the Quora answers I've read, they don't enjoy cooking after coming home. But since cooking is an unavoidable activity (unlike a side project, you can't procrastinate with hunger) they might have to.

https://www.quora.com/How-often-do-chefs-cook-at-home

They are humans, of course they like and dislike doing things. However, that doesn't define work. You can also dislike your work. Still, you are paid for it.

When I'm done for the day I don't want to sit in front of a computer any longer. I can understand why a cook would come home and just throw down a microwave meal. The issue here isn't getting paid, it's doing the same when you get home. My current employer won't renew my contract because I oppose this mentality, it's toxic and making me debate leaving IT altogether. He considers me lazy for that. Is some balance really too much to ask?

> My current employer won't renew my contract because I oppose this mentality

That's crazy. Everyone should be free to do whatever they want in their own free time.

>it's doing the same when you get home

That's what my colleague answered me when I asked him "why don't you have side projects?". Everyone should be able to choose whatever they want to do with their own free time.

I don't consider a side project as "the same thing I do at work", and I don't consider myself special.

Yeah, almost everyone wastes time on "fun" and "relaxation" that they could be better using by working on a commercial project.

Yes I agree it is possible. Yes many people will be able to do it well. There is a risk though that after ten years you could be a great programmer with a great portfolio, but with a failing body and unhappy social life.

You seem to be under the impression a side-project means spending every spare time working on it.

> There is a risk though that after ten years you could be a great programmer with a great portfolio, but with a failing body and unhappy social life.

There's no reason this should be the case, and life is full of risks.

Agreed. If you can do a project on 10 hrs/mo that can fit.

> When someone suggests hiking, reading and meditation as a good way to spend your free time, everyone nods along and talks about how wonderful it is.

The key difference is the article is saying "should", and you are saying "suggests".

If someone says you should go hiking, you're more likely to get a similar response.

It's along the same lines as " I don't have money for X because I'm paying mortgage" and then next week, they renovate their backyard for 10K.

I don‘t think anyone’s using family and other real obligations as an excuse to skip side projects - my guess is that people are very aware of the fact that side projects will reduce their leisure time and it‘s a trade off few people are willing to make. Which is perfectly reasonable.

Personally, I don‘t intend to spend every waking moment in a productive manner. In fact the downtime, all the hiking, sports and playing games allow me to be productive when it counts.

Isn't there a slatestarcodex blog about the statistical average of people having at least one significant life difficulty they're working through overall result in nearly everyone you meet having serious life-changing problems they're working through? (He listed the average rate of assault, violence, abuse, addiction, etc. in the general populace made it such that every person you meet has or is currently dealing with one of them).

In that sense it makes sense that you'll have a massive amount of pushback when proposing that people should just work harder or work more. Statistically, there's a high chance that a majority or significant minority of your audience will have one many, many conditions that eat up their time: grad school, parenting, caring for parents, caring for siblings, caring for friends, caring for spouses...

If this slatestarcodex article exists, I would really appreciate anyone who could provide the link to it. I've tried some basic searching but am not having luck. Also, I'm getting distracted reading old articles.

I believe it is this one: https://slatestarcodex.com/2015/12/24/how-bad-are-things/

Yes, it is this one, thanks.

I try to spend 45 minutes a day on meditation (as recommended in The Mind illuminated), though I probably average closer to 25. You are unlikely to get anything useful done in 25 - 45 minutes of side project time.

A side project is going to take a long time especially as your time on it is likely to be split up a lot more - so effectively far more context switching. All the other activities (except meditation) can be done more as a one time activity.

(I have started multiple side projects, but then I get busy with other aspects of my life and they get forgotten about).

The thing that I always wonder is what isn't work providing you that you feel like you want to program outside of it? I find my job really challenging/rewarding and I basically can't program after work (though I work like 50+ hours)

You can only think at a high level for so long. passive things like watching TV, meditating, sleeping, fishing require little thinking. Sports is tiring, but not so mentally taxing. Programming is entirely different.

Trouble with that is:

1 In Most developed countries any work related to you day job belongs to your employer.

2 Doing a side hustle like this looks incredibly sketchy and is not going to be a good culture fit.

nobody is saying that building side projects won't give you happiness - the point is that not everyone is the same and you cannot take a brush and paint the same expectations as everyone. is that so hard to acknowledge?

Its not bs to live life

....writing arrogant comments on HN

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