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Comment by Pfhreak | Hacker News Reader

Pronouns affect most people. Most people use them. If you are talking about trans people, it's estimated to be about 1-3% of people. That's roughly one in thirty to one in a hundred people.

That puts it at about the roughly same numbers as the number of redheads. It's uncommon, sure, but it's not totally minuscule.

Trans folks are also one of the most likely (if not the most likely) minorities to suffer physical violence just for who they are. All they are asking for is the same basic level of respect and politeness that anyone else gets.

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> All they are asking for is the same basic level of respect and politeness that anyone else gets.

Well no, that is the entire reason the situation isn't an open-and-shut-nothing-to-see-here non-controversy.

The other 97-99% of people go through life without ever particularly asserting that a specific personal pronoun needs to be used for them. They'll get antsy if someone is trying to insult them, but it looks a lot like the insult matters more than the pronoun. That 99-97% of people don't really control their public identity; have you ever seen someone trying to shake a nickname they don't particularly like? An identity is in the hands of the community. Asserting control is actually highly unusual, transexual or otherwise, and goes beyond the bounds of routine politeness.

The issue is that there is an activist minority (who may or may not be part of the trans community) who want to force people to talk in a certain way. That is not basic politeness and respect. It is complicated and context specific - especially once people start getting sacked and excluded over it.

> That 99-97% of people don't really control their public identity; have you ever seen someone trying to shake a nickname they don't particularly like?

Yes? "Hey, I don't really like being called that." "Oh shit, sorry, didn't know."

> That 99-97% of people don't really control their public identity

What? Sure they do. They were clothing that puts them in a particular group. (Or do you feel you'd have a hard time identifying punks or businessmen?) Or they'll wear religious symbols. Or speak with an accent. Or carry a firearm. Or any number of other external identity markers beyond gender.

> It is complicated and context specific

It really, really isn't. If you are unsure, ask someone their pronouns. If you make a mistake, quickly apologize and move on. Literally end of story.

ah no, when you get fired for these social justice rules then its a problem. sorry you think its so simple because if it was then there would never be any issues would there?

you cant force people to say things even though they'll probably use what you tell them because most people are nice. but were not going to change the rules for 99.9% of people and worry about preferred pronouns all the time in every little occasion just because someone exists who doesnt follow the normal pronouns

> What? Sure they do. They were clothing that puts them in a particular group. (Or do you feel you'd have a hard time identifying punks or businessmen?) Or they'll wear religious symbols. Or speak with an accent. Or carry a firearm. Or any number of other external identity markers beyond gender.

None of that is control, and it would be equivalent of a transsexual choosing their dress and appearance - which they already do.

It isn't that these requests are unreasonable, it is simply that this is a situation that goes well beyond basic politeness. This is asking society to change how it uses language.

And this change being achieved by bureaucratic fiat rather than because everyone thinks it is a good idea. It may or may not work out, but it just isn't basic politeness - there is real change being pushed here.

> If you are talking about trans people, it's estimated to be about 1-3% of people.

Transgender Demographics: A Household Probability Sample of US Adults, 2014

American Journal of Public Health

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5227939/

Transgender individuals made up 0.53% (95% confidence interval = 0.46, 0.61) of the population

Health and Care Utilization of Transgender and Gender Nonconforming Youth: A Population-Based Study

Pediatrics Journal

https://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/pediatrics/14...

Participants included 2168 (2.7%) students who identified as TGNC and 78 761 (97.3%) students who identified as cisgender.

There's a reason I give such a wide range. Maybe I should widen it to 0.5-3%, but I believe that in the past 5 years we've seen an increase in the number of people who feel comfortable with a trans or gender nonconforming identity.

youth? yea you dont get to decide until youre an adult. this is just kids being forced into it by parents who want to follow some social justice trend

and guess what there are 100s of these kids being treated for abuse and psychological damage now https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7541679/Hundreds-yo...

Trans and Gender Non-Confirming != Trans

Using that article as a source for trans population is like saying 40% of the US population are people of colour, therefore 40% of the US population is black.

The TGNC group identified as transgender, genderqueer, genderfluid, or unsure. Cis people with unusual gender expression didn't count.

Plus how many of them care about pronouns other than he/she?

yea exactly people use he or she because of your name and looks

if trans people change their name then people will just use the pronoun that goes with the name automatically so its specifically people who have a name that is not normal for that pronoun or visually look different that even have a problem

so its super rare for this to be a major issue to spend all this time even discussing it

1-3% does not pass the sniff test. Way too high.

A quick search gives the number 0.6% according to a 2016 study.

That number is likely under-reported, and there has been a significant rise in the number of people who feel comfortable identifying in the past few years. A study performed in 2017 found that 2.7% (of roughly 80,000 surveyed) identified as trans or gender non-conforming: https://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/pediatrics/14...

I've seen the numbers that range from ~1% (or a little under) to as much as 3%, like the study above.

its not, its overreported. its trendy to change gender so people do it until theyre done with the phase. why do you think theres so many reports about people switching back and regretting their decision or going against their parents who forced them when they were younger?

Gender non-conforming is a much wider net. This study you link of 9th and 11th graders, it is not surprising that a large percent (2.7% as you said) reported as trans or GNC.

The original comment above stated "trans", though, not T+GNC.

2.7% identified as transgender, genderqueer, genderfluid, or unsure. The study just used narrow definitions of trans and GNC.

A persons that have trouble distinguishing colors are ~10%, but I don't see websites having option to turn colors off and use black and white (it would be nice, but I won't make it a end of the world event). Or I don't see moderator discussions that referring to something as "red" or "green" is bad for color blind people.

If one already uses gender neutral pronoun, it should be enough, if it is not, then that person is a jerk similar to e.g. someone that whats to be called a "sir" (as in "yes, sir").

no its not basic respect, stop making it so dramatic

theyre not talking about any specific person are they? no, they want to change all the examples to be gender neutral. why? when people hear Bob they think He. they dont ask "well what if bob is trans?"

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