Comment by cbkeller | Hacker News Reader

Comment by cbkeller | Hacker News Reader

Parent Full thread

I sympathise, but for better or worse the OED reports that people have been using "literally" to mean "figuratively"* since at least 1769:

  > 1769   F. Brooke *Hist. Emily Montague* IV. ccxvii. 83 "He is a fortunate man to be introduced to such a party of fine women at his arrival; it is literally to feed among the lilies."
  > 1801   *Spirit of Farmers' Museum* 262   "He is, literally, made up of marechal powder, cravat, and bootees."
  > 1825   J. Denniston *Legends Galloway* 99   "Lady Kirkclaugh, who, literally worn to a shadow, died of a broken heart."
  > 1863   F. A. Kemble *Jrnl. Resid. Georgian Plantation* 105   "For the last four years..I literally coined money."
  > 1876   ‘M. Twain’ *Adventures Tom Sawyer* ii. 20   "And when the middle of the afternoon came, from being a poor poverty-stricken boy in the morning, Tom was literally rolling in wealth."

[*] Or as they, put it, "Used to indicate that some (frequently conventional) metaphorical or hyperbolical expression is to be taken in the strongest admissible sense"

Those examples don't use literally to mean "literally" (or "figuratively").

Its meaning in those is closer to "pretty much", "as good as", or "almost like". It's more of a metaphorical intensifier, but there's clearly a metaphor being implied.

"Tom was literally rolling in wealth" vs. "I'm literally going to kill him!"

They look the same to me.

If you took away "literally" in both cases, it would still be understood to be figurative. "Literally" isn't doing its job of meaning literally, but it isn't meaning figuratively.

I think the correct understanding is as hyperbolic use of the regular sense of literally.

If I say, "I walked miles around the store looking for you" or "I waited for you for days", we don't say "sometimes miles means hundreds of feet and sometimes days means a few minutes". We say people sometimes exaggerate.

In the same way, "Tom was rolling in wealth [so much so that it's almost as if he were literally rolling in wealth, but of course that interpretation is silly and I'm using hyperbole to exaggerate how rolling-in-wealth Tom was]".

I don't understand the distinction you're trying to draw here. Literally 100% of the time modern people use the word "literally" in a way that means "figuratively" it's to engage in hyperbole but it's also to explicitly mark that what follows is not to be taken literally.

As you say, you can engage in hyperbole without marking it.

The distinction is that you cannot substitute the word "figuratively" in these examples, because it does not mean "figuratively".

If I say "I figuratively am going to kill him", you're highlighting the figurativeness of the act. You're stressing that you're not actually going to kill him. The meaning of the sentence is "I'm going to kill him... but not really".

If I say "I'm going to kill him" or "I'm literally going to kill him", which mean basically the same thing, it's still implied to be metaphor. But what's being stressed here is the closeness to the metaphor becoming actually literal. The meaning of the sentence is "I'm SO angry with him that I'm ALMOST at the point of killing him".

It's subtle, but there's definitely a distinction. "Figuratively" is a dehyperbolization (it's not really gonna happen), "literally" is a hyperbolization (it is hyperbolically really close to happening).

I don't think it's marking hyperbole, but being itself used hyperbolically.

I find this convincing.

The same as what?

"Literally" is being used for hyperbole. It makes the sentence more intense.

The word "figuratively" is not used for hyperbole. It's not a synonym. The sentence being figurative does not matter.

That is true.

> Used to indicate that some (frequently conventional) metaphorical or hyperbolical expression is to be taken in the strongest admissible sense

That's not a definition of "figuratively".

This style of argument is not persuasive. It can only tell us that people have been making an error since 1769 or something. It can't tell us that we should tolerate this error in well constructed writing. You're demonstrated nothing.

Language "rules" are errors given time. There isn't a static arbiter of what is correct and what is not, otherwise new words wouldn't be added to dictionaries.

This doesn’t contradict mindful amending of language, not only new words are allowed but modifying the old ones too.

I agree, but I will say language seemingly mutates from random chance much more often than with human intervention.

One may or may not like it, but that is literally how language works.

Language is a democracy. When people say thing like "My head literally exploded", they are voting for "literally" to be a meaningless intensifier. When I make fun of them, I'm voting for it to have the meaning, "This actually happened".

Think about which way you want the language to be, and then use your vote.

Democracy implies you both have equal votes and there is an outcome that can become the norm. They are using the word 'literally' in a way that imbues additional meaning (or arguably makes a new word) without seeking permission from society or community. You are using (mild, well-meant) social coercion to try to suppress that usage. I'd say it's more anarchy than democracy.

I don't think the intensifier is meaningless. It is meaningful because otherwise people wouldn't use it. It might be jarring to you, or the meaning not obvious, but an intensifier is by definition meaningful: it intensifies, after all :)

Exactly. The post I argued against didn't provide any information about base rates, so it was not the kind of argument from popularity that you're describing. A lot of people write English. You can always find someone who screws it up in some way or another. Pointing out these screwups is not an argument that the screwup consists of a consensus language change.

One may or may not like it, but that is language how literally works.

You may not like my swapping the definitions of those words, but that is language how literally works. Therefore, according to your logic, it is valid.

"It can't tell us that we should tolerate this error in well constructed writing."

The 'well constructed writing' portion was not specified. What was specified is that someone will make fun of anyone for the colloquial use case.

Reply on news.ycombinator.com