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Comment by asenna | Hacker News Reader

For people saying dual screen is a gimmick, have you not wanted to replicate multi-screen setup on your laptop (while traveling or when not on your desktop)? Power users have always wanted more screen real estate!

I've been eyeing the Asus Zenbook Pro Duo[1] ever since they've been announced (currently using a Macbook Pro 2015). I usually carry around an Asus portable second screen for my laptop in my backpack and this dual screen laptop trend is exactly what I wanted! I'm definitely upgrading to a dual screen option next.

Although I have no hope from Apple, I'm still waiting to see what the next MBP iteration would be. All they need to do is stretch that stupid touchbar enough to be a respectable second screen.

[1] - https://www.asus.com/Laptops/ZenBook-Pro-Duo-UX581GV/

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I'm happy to see that Asus managed to find a way to keep the Escape key even while taking up way more space than Touchbar. Apple has no excuse.

Still I'd personally rather use efficient tiling software + tabbing between spaces than have to look down at distractions. I'm amazed no major OS developer has tried to deliver this as an advanced mode. It's the type of thing that would benefit from direct OS integration.

Most of the MacOS tiling software have occasional awkward moments with Spaces and fullscreen mode.

I've never been more happy with a desktop environment than when I used i3.

The sloppy window management in macOS combined with the scarce selection of laptops (of which none are really good in my opinion) has led me to try win10 as my development environment.

i3-like on Windows would have been great!

Windows management in macOS is downright awful and has been that way for years.

It's come to a point where all serious productivity work I do is done on my Windows computer.

I've also recently ventured into building my own PC and realized how much power you can get for peanuts with the right configuration. My last Ryzen 3700x build is faster than any Mac I've ever owned and costs 1/3rd.

Between all this and the horrible butterfly keyboard, I might be off the Apple train for good

There was a substantial period of time in the 2000s when Apple had just released Expose, and neither Windows nor Linux had anything that was comparable and Windows management in OSX was better than Windows or major Linux distros.

Well.... I don't think I've ever used Expose. I don't use it now, that's for sure.

Win10 has all I need. Alt+tab shows me Windows, not apps. Win+arrow keys will maximize, minimize, etc. Win+alt+arrow keys moves windows between displays.

Amusing because PC user have been saying this for years and years and years.

You may want to check out FancyZones

https://github.com/microsoft/PowerToys/blob/master/src/modul...

Not a full feature i3-like software, but I was amazed how it implements almost all features I like about i3.

https://www.workspacer.org/

It was mentioned in a FancyZones thread a few months ago.

Thank you for pointing that out. I have to use Windows 10 often enough to wish for something like that, and had been looking, but FancyZones was the closest I'd found yet.

Related, bug.n is a DWM clone written in AutoHotkey, of all the things. I used it at work a few years ago, and I was very satisfied.

https://github.com/fuhsjr00/bug.n

DisplayFusion is one I've used for years for splitting screens into virtual displays. Plus altering what elements show on the taskbar for those screens.

(Commercial product).

I use Amethyst (like xmonad), spaces and set the dock to auto hide. Keyboard shortcuts for switching layouts and moving windows. Three finger swipe to the left or right to switch spaces or ctrl 1-4. I’m pretty happy with this setup.

https://github.com/ianyh/Amethyst

I’ve used Amethyst twice before giving up and just going back to manually doing all my adjustments. I found it extremely wonky. For example, even after a user specifies their preferences, it will still auto snap after you make your own custom adjustments. Custom adjustments should always override the default snap-to-preset rules.

Maybe you found a way around this!

I just need Plasma-like workspaces (apps in a layout that you can switch to for different work-focuses) and "always on top" (which IIRC used to be in MS Windows) ... any suggestions?

Windows has "always on top" feature, but not all software uses it.

In Win10? It's not in the right-click menu from the application bar for Office 2016 products, for example, nor for Chrome/IE. I've used it previously, where did they hide it and why isn't it in MS Office?

That's an amazing looking laptop.

Especially when WSL2 is out ~next year, that extra screen above the keyboard would be amazing for displaying eg Terminal - with VSCode or Studio in the main screen. So many options.

The top model is not afraid of its price point, sadly, but it sure is a Hero configuration.

WSL is out, and you can get installation instructions here:

https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/wsl/wsl2-install

Cheers. I'm using WSL1 now, but am getting too old to join the Insider / Fast rings. Have done my fair share of Windows OS beta testing over the decades, starting with Win95. :)

As we're sharing links, this was a great write up: https://devblogs.microsoft.com/commandline/announcing-wsl-2/

Can't wait for it to roll out officially with 20H1.

Have you used yabai (on macOS)? It's about as close as I think we can possibly hope for.

I still pine for i3 though.

Yes, I use yabai daily. It still feels a bit awkward but far less so than the rest I've tried. I might need to improve my config though.

I’ve always found workspaces on Mac to be great, especially with swipe gestures. It’s the only laptop I’ve ever been able to sit in the couch and write reports on, which I usually need two monitors for (one for the report, the other for whatever I’m reviewing for the report).

Courage over Escapism always /s

> have you not wanted to replicate multi-screen setup on your laptop (while traveling or when not on your desktop)? P

Remember the Thinkpad W701ds? With its retractable second screen, this was a thing of beauty:

https://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/image/upload/c_fill,f_a...

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/msJwcKy4PQQ/maxresdefault.jpg

https://static.bhphoto.com/images/images1000x1000/1276679060...

https://live.staticflickr.com/1707/24571574422_aeeb09181f_b....

Just wrote something similar. I agree.

Genuinely curious, why did these not work? Extremely poor battery life / portability?

Probably they were too expensive for people who buy laptops for work and too ugly for people who buy laptops for showcase.

Looks like it weighs 20lbs

I don't understand how anyone could think dual screen is a gimmick that had a DS. There were a lot of games that put those two screens to good use. I am serious.

It could have done the same with 1 larger screen. But the DS is a foldable device. It's not a gimmick, it's part of the operation of the device. I use dual screens at work, because they are smaller lower resolution screens. At home I have 1 huge high resolution screen. Not having a physical separation is amazing.

Angular size is key. When I'm on my desk I have multiple screens that cover about twice as much as my laptop when I'm working away from my desk. Since the screen is closer, I can increase it's density and then I have almost as much real estate as on my desk.

Not sold on this reasoning.

Attaching a second monitor doesn't suddenly make your main display useless.

One of the things I completely fail to understand is why most people I work with close their laptop displays when docked to secondary monitors.

I have a 34" 3440x1440 ultrawide monitor at home on my desk, and I use that plus my Macbook's display.

At work, I use 24x 24" 1440p monitors, and I use thoes plus my Surface Pro's 12" display.

When I'm out and about, on my Macbook or on my Surface, I definitely miss the extended displays. A lot.

I’m trying to work out whether that 24x monitors is a typo, and if not what you’d use them all for. I’m a huge proponent of multiple displays but anytime I use more than three the mental overhead of trying to remember which display something is on (or even finding something for every display) becomes to much.

My dream setup is two 2x2 clusters of square monitors siding a camera. Sadly, it's hard to make the camera glow red and Douglas Rain is no longer available to do its voice.

It's also probably not well suited for software development work, but it'd be a killer operator's console.

I know it's not the same thing, but damn the Nintendo DS sold me on multi screen games. Wish there were more.

I always thought it was a gimmick on the DS too. I don't remember any game that did anything interesting with it that couldn't also be done on a single larger screen.

[spoilers] 999 relies on the two screens for the actual purposes of constructing the narrative(s), as well as for the big reveal at the end. The story is unfortunately a layer shallower on the PC port of the game (not to mention that you have to choose between one of two options for dialogue, neither of which is all inclusive).

> 999 relies on the two screens for the actual purposes of constructing the narrative(s), as well as for the big reveal at the end

What does it do with two screens that couldn’t be done with one screen divided into two halves?

The screen being arbitrarily divided into two halves would give away a huge plot element pretty quickly, if you are paying attention, as well as some smaller stuff. You aren't actually controlling Junpei, as you are led to believe for the entire game, at least, not really. You are actually controlling a girl in the past named Akane, who is seeing the world through Junpei's eyes. The trick is that Akane's observations are actually happening on one screen, while what Junpei experiences happen on the other. You would be pretty crazy to see the observations made as coming from anyone but Junpei, given the context, except the whole screen thing, even though there are weird little issues of phrasing that don't quite make sense, but if the game was arbitrarily played on two screens, it'd give that bit away.

There's also the part near the end where you play as Akane directly, and you play with the DS turned upside down in your hands, but that's more minor versus the fact that the entire game actually takes place on a meta level.

I still don’t get it - the two screens are still next to each other right? So what’s the difference between two screens next to each other, and two regions of the same screen? I don’t understand how the effect is any different.

That's a gimmick (defined as: An innovative or unusual mechanical contrivance; a gadget.) and hardly proof that dual screens aren't a gimmick . It sounds very creative and may have been well executed, but it's still a gimmick that won't make it into other games.

I played the hell out of my DS, but the second screen was mostly a crappy input mechanism.

Fit in your pocket

Consider this: To gain any information from a screen, you must actually look at it. You can only look at one screen at a time. The entire functionality of a second screen can be replaced with a single button: While that button is pressed, the screen shows whatever else it needs to show.

It is true that pressing a button is ever so slightly slower than moving your eyes. But considering all the benefits from saving a whole screen (double battery life! reduced manufacturing cost! smaller device size!), dual screenage is really just a gimmick.

All you need is a button dedicated to "screen" switching in software.

This is not true for several reasons:

1) Software screen switching is not instantaneous

2) Moving your head is lower friction than pressing a button (and more likely a key chord)

3) Humans have very good spatial awareness and multiple screens have this affordance that a button would not.

Humans evolve. Computer systems aren't exactly "spatial", and virtually all attempts to model them as such have failed. We ought to strive for future vision.

1) False. Software screen switching is easily instantaneous. If you literally have two front buffers which, you must for a dual screen setup... there’s no reason you couldn’t flip between them at the refresh rate of your monitor (which is ridiculous but doable). Workspace switchers that run on shitty old X can be and many are effectively instantaneous. Not sure about Windows, but I assume something exists.

There’s more to life than Mac OS X.

3) you can still have a spatial layout of workspaces even with one viewport.

How come in people have been shown to be more productive with dual screens?

Well I didn’t say multiple screens didn't serve a purpose, did I?

Having said that, is there any good evidence of a fair comparison of dual screen vs a fast switching single screen. Most Mac and Windows setups make switching so tedious and slow it’s pretty obvious that dual would be more productive.

I would not be surprised that a truly friction minimized single screen setup (total switching latency from input to display <100ms... which is technically easily achievable (and done in many special purpose devices... just not in PC software).. and ergonomic switching key would approach dual screen in productivity. I mean, this is the typical setup I and many others use on a Linux laptop for dev work. By the time someone gets MC on OS X up, I can literally switch “screens” 3 or 4 times.

I enjoy a multimonitor (4) setup, but I’m not about to trade off battery life and space for it on the road.

Frankly it’s just easier and cheaper to buy a second monitor with state of the art, for most people. I get that. I use OSX and Windows too.

Also, I would expect more than 2 monitors to increase the gap.

People with multiscreen setups knows about alt-tab. It's about removing friction.

Virtual desktops were first envisioned at Xerox Parc and hot keys aren't new but dual screens have proven demonstrably more productive. Why is this?

Glancing from one screen to another is easier and lower mental overhead and you can look for input in your peripheral like text appearing without losing current context. You can also read from one screen while typing in another which is impossible in a non visible workspace.

This is how a robot thinks. It's much more intuitive to have two screens where you can see everything in your peripheral vision and dart your attention without any extra thinking.

In the case of the DS at least, the big differentiator is that the second screen is touch, and is positioned in a more touch-friendly place.

If your one-and-only screen is touch, you have to lift your arms up away from your buttons to press anything. No matter how much of an impost it is to have to look down a little, I'd say it's still less than having to lift your hand away from the buttons into your eyeline.

- You'll take my dual and triple monitor setup from my home office and work-office over my cold dead body

- But... on the go? Yes, I want the biggest possible screen, but also the best possible keyboard+trackpoint. So the new Surface Neo feels less than ideal.

I am open to possibility that a breakthrough in UI will make this attractive, and/or that brand-new, unimagined-today use-cases will come up; but today, I don't see how / for what I'd use dual screen with soft keyboard:

1. When I'm consuming media, portability is key AND I can only really focus on one screen (book, show) at the time 2. When I'm creating, I need a fast, comfortable, efficient method of inputing data. Today it's keyboard+trackpoint (when on the go), and I cannot imagine a useful way to type on dual screen that doesn't also make one of the screens pointless. So for me, today, transformable tablets (with hardware detachable keyboard, the way Asus Transformer used to be) is the sweet spot.

But I'm eager to be proven wrong over the course of time. I fear this may be a Catch-22 device, if insufficient software/use-cases are available by the time hardware comes out, and it just fizzles out...

Conversely, what Asus is doing where I can have my cake and eat it too (second screen AND hardware keyboard, though it doesn't look great and no trackpoint), feels like the way to go / immediately useful / good transition device.

I worked in tech consulting, and my colleague actually had a very thin ~23" (IIRC) portable LCD screen he somehow carried with him on planes. It had a foldable kickstand so he could set up a dual-screen on any hotseat desk in seconds. It was brilliant, and I briefly considered the same, but my backpack was already heavy enough. I've heard of folks doing this with the MBP + a iPad Pro, but idk how well that works.

I keep looking at those, though in the 12-14" size. I'm interested and can see use-cases.

But - you can put those to the side of your regular monitor.

It's replacing the keyboard ("underneath" / looking down from my primary screen) completely with a full-size second screen, that I don't see myself doing just yet.

It works very, very well with the "duet" app. Duet supports Windows/Mac along with any recent iPad (or even iPhone).

The upcoming version of MacOS supports this natively but it's not clear to me yet how it will compare with Duet.

It’s startlingly good, even wirelessly. I spend a lot of time working between different offices, and being able to set the iPad up as a secondary display is very handy.

The iPad display also gets its own touchbar instance, and it makes way more sense as a thin touch control strip at the bottom of the screen than it does as a function key replacement.

> https://www.asus.com/Laptops/ZenBook-Pro-Duo-UX581GV/

Apple touch bar, done right :-)

Yes! Which is why I'm still wishing someone at Apple wakes up from their busy schedule of making the "Pro" laptops thinner and instead add in some actual pro stuff!

that looked great, until i saw the reviews like "2 hours of battery life" and "This laptop cannot be charged via USB-C. It requires the included 230W power adapter."

this is not a laptop. this is a portable desktop

I'm sure that can be improved in future iterations. It's a much-needed innovation in the stagnant laptop market.

Comparing a screen in front of the keyboard at a weird angle to the main screen to “multiple monitors” when “on the road” is like suggesting McDonald’s to a home cooked meal “when on the road”.

The comparison is between a laptop having just the one screen VS a laptop with another screen squeezed in irrespective of the angle.

As long as I can have my terminal down there or my Lightroom film strip or a Youtube podcast open, that's a lot better experience than just one screen. Yes, it's a compromise from an actual desktop environment, but still a huge step up from not having any extra screen.

portable displays are a thing that exists, and don’t force you to strain your neck or eyes to be useful.

Yes, and I carry one around in my backpack all the time. But it's not convenient in many situations.

As I posted elsewhere:

> One of the reasons I'm excited about a built-in second screen is, I don't need to carry another extra device (second screen or iPad). I mean even if I need to use an ipad, I'm currently slouching on my couch. I need a flat surface to keep that ipad/screen at the right angle. Sounds petty but it's just very convenient to have more real estate on your lap (or on a flight or cafe table).

> Although I have no hope from Apple, I'm still waiting to see what the next MBP iteration would be.

You can use an iPad as a second screen for a MacBook. It still gives you a traditional keyboard and single screen when you don’t need that, and you can use just the second screen as a computing device on its own. I haven’t used this setup but I assume Apple would say this is the best of both worlds already. Is there something that you think is missing from their solution?

One of the reasons I'm excited about a built-in second screen is, I don't need to carry another extra device. I mean even if I need to use an ipad, I'm currently slouching on my couch. I need a flat surface to keep that ipad/screen at the right angle. Sounds petty but it's just very convenient to have more real estate on your lap (or on a flight or cafe table).

Also, I'm not too into the Apple ecosystem and don't own an ipad so would have to get an ipad just to use it as a second screen. I think it could work for some but an integrate dual screen solution is exciting.

I've done this with third-party solutions, and it's fantastic, especially when traveling.

I'm really looking forward to having it as part of the next OS update.

> For people saying dual screen is a gimmick, have you not wanted to replicate multi-screen setup on your laptop (while traveling or when not on your desktop)? Power users have always wanted more screen real estate!

Can't say I have multi-screen.. but I have wanted more screen real estate.

One thing I think could happen is to make laptops that let you fold the screen out, thus letting you have a larger screen while still maintaining a small physical footprint.

There have been USB powered portable monitors for years that would let you get a dual screen experience. With iOS 13, there is built in support for using an iPad ($329 10.2inch screen) as a second display.

Really ? So lugging a USB monitor vs having on a device. Which one would most users prefer ? Don't say "oh the external can be of higher res". Portability is a big win.

Many who do serious work on laptops lug around bluetooth keyboards + mice + laptop stands so the ergonomics aren't crippling. Adding external screens (which are generally very light) isn't a big add.

We also don't need phones. Let's carry an LTE dongle with our laptops. I am glad comments sections don't design products.

I am sad that cellular modems in portables isn't a bigger thing. It was a feature before it's time. Now that the world is far more interconnected than before, it would be more useful that it used to be.

On one hand, I would ask why? I always have my phone with me to use as a hotspot and I usually have my cellular iPad. The iPad can last 24 hours as a hotspot (https://www.imore.com/yup-ipad-air-still-gets-24-hours-batte...)

On the other hand, seeing that I always have my phone with me, I don’t need my cellular connection with my iPad either and I could save that $20 a month.

I do wonder if even T-mobile would be as generous with data with a laptop as they would with a tablet.

Most Windows users especially do seem to at least carry around a mouse with their laptops. Carrying a 2/3 pound - 1 pound iPad in your laptop bag is also something a lot of travelers do.

How much lighter is a second screen attach to the device than an iPad - which weighs 1.07 pounds or the iPad Mini that weighs 2/3s of a pound?

Are you adding the weight of the bag you now need to carry for the screen ? Or will you lug it in hand with a USB cable ?

Do you usually carry a laptop without a bag? How do you carry your laptop cord now? How snug is your laptop bag that you can’t put an iPad in it? Also, the iPad connects to your Macbook using WiFi. If you have an iPhone, you probably are already carrying a lightning cord - the same one that the non-pro iPads use.

Why stop at the 2nd screen ? Why don't you carry your processor, cables and monitors together everywhere.

How do you take your laptop with you without taking your “processor”? When you travel, you don’t take your power cord for your laptop and your phone?

That's exactly what I've been doing. But I value portability - I'm a (hobby) photographer as well and my backpack includes 2 lenses and a Nikon D850 (combined > 10lbs!) + my MBP 2015 + My usb-C powered second screen.

I travel a lot with this full backpack and if I can reduce that second screen, I'd jump on that!

Only two? Some people are really spoiled around here ;)

An iPad Mini is 0.66 pounds a regular iPad is 1 pound.

I started seeing the TB as a missed opportunity for a second screen but with the Golden Chaos touchbar replacement (a preset for Better Touch Tools) I see it as my computer's Apple Watch

The touchbar is totally under-utilized by Apple. Golden Chaos demonstrates that it just needs a new and appropriate sign language and immediately gets much more useful.

With Golden Chaos I use my touchbar to see my current email count, whats playing plus media controls, calender, time, weather, battery – and if I press a modifier key a whole universe of shortcuts opens up. My only addition - and the most heavily used function - is a button to push my current window to the other monitor. So my touchbar effectively is my tool to utilize my second screen more easily.

Honestly, I'm actually looking forward to VR headset just for this. If I can get rid of my multi-monitors with just 1 headset then not only will it be more portable but also give me more real estate.

Of course, the compromise in picture quality is still a deal breaker for me.

Always wanted to have a relatively light-weight dual screen laptop. Asus Zenbook Pro Duo is too over-powered with that GPU and large body. I want something light and preferably fanless.

However, while the Surface is certainly light-weight enough, it is too small when you type on the keyboard. Being just barely larger than a large phone is insufficient, in terms of both screen space and keyboard space. I can't type on so small a keyboard without giving myself wrist pain. It just doesn't seem like a serious laptop replacement.

I use Duet for my iPad to get a 2nd screen for my laptop. It’s not perfect but it works. If I used a Mac I’d be excited to try the new “sidecar” second screen function Apple just unveiled. But of course it doesn’t work with a PC.

Anyway this setup gives me the best of both worlds. I get a nice trackpoint and keyboard, one really good display at all times, and a second display when I really need it. My iPad is thin and lightweight enough that I always have it with me in my laptop bag anyway.

Only downside is Duet Display can be a bit resource intensive.

I've been scratching my head trying to think how this could be used; I guess as a folding monitor makes some sense - but I wonder how big that market would be?

The only issue I have with folder / dual screen, is that it's not .. ultra ergonomic on the go. Unless you're really not moving or near stationary.

Multiple windows is crucial for my work, but every time I've used them, I've also had access to a standard sized keyboard.

I can't imagine doing a lot of things without a keyboard that require multiple screens

I'm a pretty dedicated mac user but that machine has me intrigued.

Still, I did laugh at some of the marketing: "Celestial Blue futuristic sense"

edit: But why did they have to include Alexa. Dammit.

It might be useful if there was a decent mobile OS that ran on it and also had an overlapping window manager.

Honestly the OS is way more interesting than the hardware.

Wow, that looks extremely cool. I wonder if it's a problem that there's no natural palm rest while typing though.

They have a palm rest that comes with the laptop as seen in some of the pictures: https://au.pcmag.com/laptops/62235/hands-on-the-twin-screen-...

Not ideal, but it's something.

With the Zenbook, if the increased productivity let's you get more work done, it might pay for itself quickly.

Hmm, at that point might as well just remove the keyboard and use an external when you really need one.

IPad OS 13 and the next MacOS support Sidecar, which lets you use an iPad as a second monitor.

I haven’t used multiple screens in years. They tire me and dizzy. Ultrawides ftw

once you have an ultrawide setup, dual screens seem inferior

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