At the event in SF they had stale sugar cookies & bottles of water for refreshments. Several people (myself included) got up half way during their pitch and left.
Not sure I’d ever want to work for the federal government after that experience.
At the event in SF they had stale sugar cookies & bottles of water for refreshments. Several people (myself included) got up half way during their pitch and left.
Not sure I’d ever want to work for the federal government after that experience.
Most of the engineers there looked around at the country and felt there was simple things that would make life so much better for their neighbors and friends, and they knew they were wasting their time trying to make people click on advertisements. For my part my father is a veteran who had to deal with the VA for his doctors appointments and benefits and his experience was beyond bad ( which is something you can hear from lots of veterans ). When I got the opportunity to join the USDS and work at the VA with the Secretary of the VA and the Senior Executives I also felt it was a fools errand, but I figured if I didn't at least try how could I expect anything to get better for my dad. I joined a agency that was struggling to get even basic IT systems working, and with the help of world class engineers and dedicated public servants we helped millions of veterans and literally saved lives. I have had veterans break down crying telling us how much better their life is now that they can actually engage with a agency who was trying to provide them services.
Quite frankly the people who staff the USDS are not only the most technically competent, but their dedication to service is so strong, and their ability to succeed in impossible situations though sheer force of will and dedication so overwhelming they have radically changed how this country operates, and there is still individuals there who are continuing on the mission.
What did you do with your life? If your concerned about the pay cut and poor working conditions then stay at your job and see if you can manipulate people into clicking on ads better, but just know those people who you just looked down on are making a difference.
* Also for the record my tour of duty ended two years ago, and I am no longer associated with the USDS, I am just a huge fan who's life was changed by what I saw while I was there.
Unrelated to the original topic, but I want to point out that this question and it’s cousins are a massive red flag for me.
Being content with life is hard. For many people who are still in the early stages of figuring it out, this question is poison.
It attacks a specific insecurity and is always only used to recruit young people into a workforce that is otherwise hard to staff (militaries, rebel causes, government services etc)
When “what have you done with your life?” is replaced with “Do x, and your life will be more meaningful”, the advertising tactic becomes more visible. But the people who want to find such answers must seek therapy, not enroll for whatever job opportunity is being nefariously advertised.
So it is a loaded question, but I feel its one people in the tech industry need to ask themselves.
> * Also for the record my tour of duty ended two years ago
Is there some official marketing for the USDS that uses this term "tour of duty" to refer to a civilian government job? This comment uses that exact phrase twice, and I've seen other people use it with reference to the USDS as well.
It's honestly a huge turnoff, more than anything else GP mentioned. There are some situations under which I'd be willing to work for below-market rates. But the last thing i would ever want is for my work to be associated with the culture and goals of the military, or for my coworkers to view our job in that light.
There are lots of jobs, both in the government and in the private sector, which have fixed terms. Very few refer to this using the militaristic language "tour of duty".
Thanks for answering the question. So it is, in fact, a conscious decision by the USDS, which doesn't reflect well on their work culture IMO.
The problem is, I'm not willing to work below market rate -- for anyone. The government has a lot of resources, they are just used inappropriately. I'm not willing to work for beans for the government, and billing it as a "service to your country" is just a way to get people to feel like they aren't being taken advantage of. Pay people what they are worth. Be honest. Provide a good working environment. Treat people with respect. Put a little effort into the recruitment events like you actually care about people.
If the government wants to attract good technical talent, they need to offer the same or similar benefits that tech companies do, and they need to pay people what they are worth. Who would have thought?
And from the sound of it, the USDS is attracting good talent. What you're saying is that they need to put in more effort if they want to attract you. But you may exist at that nexus of talent that is good, but also wants to be wooed a bit. There's a problem with that though: It wouldn't be selling the reality of working with the USDS. As a group they may be great, but you're dropped into areas, like the VA, that may be dysfunctional. They can't try recruiting people like you who want the slick office spaces and amenities and fancy recruiting events, because you're not a good fit for the environment you'll be working in. Your work would be part of the effort to improve that situation, but it takes people willing to put up with it.
Pay people what they are worth! You don't have to pay Netflix salary but it at least needs to be in the range of market rate.
It disturbs me that there are those here on HN that seem to fetishize suffering when there are so many resources. People don't need to suffer needlessly to do good work and get things done and "change the world". In fact, when you allow people to live a decent life you'll find they are happier and more productive employees.
People who are driven by personal gain, and comfort will never make it at the USDS. The work is hard and thankless, its exhausting and there are never enough people for the amount of work that needs to be done. The hours are long. You have no tools, and really odd and limiting restrictions you have to deal with. If you are concerned about any of those things stay away, you are not good enough to join. You need to have unquestionable technical credentials and the mental fortitude to deal with whatever gets thrown at you. You have to be able to stand up to Secretaries, Generals, Members of Congress, and Presidents and tell them what should be done. Its ok if you can't do it there aren't many who can, but if you can you will change the world.
Who is your target audience with this little speech? 14 year old boys? I'm asking, because I stopped responding to "Prove you're not yellow, you coward" nonsense about that age, and I was pretty slow...
Hahaha ... what? You reduced the cost by moving into one of the most overpriced hosting options? Or are you telling me that the government is getting massive discounts?
Its expensive, but in this case the savings were massive ( saved almost 20m per year )
Veterans could get appointments to see their doctors. The number one kind of appointment was mental health. That is how it was changing the world. What we did with that one application can now be done thousands of times over for their other projects. We wrote the playbook.
So your argument is that the USDS is bad because you personally don't want to work there?
Sometimes, I gotta be honest, I don't think I can get a break with you. I just don't see you taking this tact with anyone else. The forum is filled with single-line responses like this.
And I... well, I gotta be honest, I don't see you making this kind of correction to other posters. There really does seem to be something about me specifically that's setting you off. How can I fix that?
For us most moderation interactions are stateless, because we do thousands of them, which sandblasts the brain [3] and scrubs it of previous state. That creates an asymmetry: because individual users interact with moderators only rarely, they're more likely to remember the interactions. Plus there's the authority thing: it sucks to be reprimanded by authority, no matter how mildly, even on a trivial playground like an internet forum, so inevitably that impresses itself on the memory, usually with a lot of extra torque. None of us is immune from that psychology. We try to mitigate it but we're not perfect, plus we can't mitigate what we're not conscious of.
Then there's the quantity issue: even if we never slept, we could never moderate every violation of the site guidelines or even read all the comments to find them all. So every regular reader of HN is going to run across comments that should have been moderated but weren't. It's irresistible to give that an interpretation—nobody looks at it and says to themselves, "Ah, randomness". Instead they see confirmation of whatever bias they fear the mods are governed by—usually a political or ideological bias, sometimes a personal one, occasionally something on the long tail of weird.
In reality, all we see is a random sample of comments plus the ones that readers bring to our attention by flagging and/or emailing. That leaves a large corpus of unmoderated material that provides way more than enough sourdough-starter for every perception that is out there to feed on. The natural human response is to construct a story about what happened: what the moderators did, why we did it, what we were thinking and feeling when we did it. These stories are basically all made up, because making up stories is what we all do all day; the brain is a compulsive curve-fitter, and there is almost never more than a handful of beans for data.
I can tell you that, to the extent that I recognize your username, I associate it with someone who has improved their HN commenting style over the years—which FWIW is a high-praise bucket in my mental hashtable. But if you really want to be relieved of the issue that "I don't see you making this kind of correction to other posters", the surest way would be to read backward through https://news.ycombinator.com/threads?id=dang until you can stomach no more of it.
1. https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&qu...
2. https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&qu...
3. https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que...
If your entire operational model relies on taking advantage of others, asking people to make huge personal sacrifices because you don't want to properly fund a program, there's something wrong.
It's the classic "ends justify the means" argument.
You're making this kind of absolutist argument that to my eyes is just ridiculous on its face. Different people want different things, and are willing to accept different raw salary numbers for them. The whole point of having an employment market is precisely to allow different people to make these choices and come to an appropriate equilibrium.
If you personally don't want to work for the government for lower pay than you could get in the private sector, that's fine. But that's not a principled argument about wage structures, it's just your choice. And empirically, it's not everyone's.
Not sure how you can argue against the simple fact that people need to be paid a decent, fair wage. At all levels of your career, including your first job. A startup doesn't get a pass just as the government shouldn't get a pass for "mission based" worked. Everything and everyone has a mission, but that is separate from the fact people need to be paid (& treated) fairly.
> stale sugar cookies & bottles of water for refreshments
Well, that's what the government runs on. Old tech, low pay, and minimal perks. But there is impactful work to be done and some people are motivated by that.
I feel like time and time again I read how private sector can do better than the public sector, in all sectors.
By the time we're talking about non-military discretionary spending it's 15% of the total. https://www.nationalpriorities.org/budget-basics/federal-bud...
> I feel like time and time again I read how private sector can do better than the public sector, in all sectors.
The private sector has its own problems. Do we want the government to be more like PG&E and Comcast? Consider the difference in outcomes between for-profit universities and state schools. The topic is too in depth for a random internet comment, but things really need to be taken on a case by case basis. It's all about incentives.
While there's a lot of truth to this, I think it's overused as an explanation because blaming the institution is less painful when there's a failed outcome.
Talent, on the other hand, is less used as an explanation because when there's a bad outcome, it hurts more to blame those, even partially, who were executing towards the goal.
However in some endeavors talent matters a lot, and software is one of them. The Mythical Man-Month is a great book that examines software project failure, whose conclusions are that "institutional" solutions to software problems, such as more staff or more budget, aren't as good as "talent" solutions, such as hiring the best person in the world for an absurdly high salary and having them do most of the work.
That's a long-winded answer to why the private sector is better than the public sector at some things: it does a better job at rewarding, and thus attracting, talent. The public sector, by contrast, is more likely to promote based on seniority and base political values, which in a democracy include equality and solidarity.
"Money, power, respect. It's the key to life."
Which has also been described as the three main rewards that people value (sometimes in combination).
(I often equate respect with fame in the examples below)
e.g.
College Professor:
- low money
- medium power
- high respect
HFT Trader:
- high money
- low power
- low respect/fame
Mid level government bureaucrat that manages the budget of an important project:
- low money
- high power
- low respect
Not everyone is driven by money (or at least, by money alone).