I've also done this, please don't get me fired. Well, I was 15 at the time, but perhaps still better socially adjusted than Stallman at 60.
If true, that is deeply disturbing behavior.
Not even RMS.
It seems more likely to me he made the threat legitimately, but chose not to follow through.
Do you have evidence for your assertion that it was a joke?
The woman who experienced it certainly didn't perceive it as one.
If you genuinely think RMS was considering suicide over a date refusal, your likelyhood calibrations way off. He's weird, but he's not raving maniac. It is ok to exaggerate a little sometimes for the sake of argument, maybe, but really, there's bound of how far the credulity can be stretched.
> Do you have evidence for your assertion that it was a joke?
I just said it in my previous comment. Also, I've seen people. Virtually nobody, excepting gravely mentally ill people that are most likely already on heavy meds and being treated by psychiatrists, commits suicide over a date refusal from a random female.
> The woman who experienced it certainly didn't perceive it as one.
Not getting the joke is a common occurrence. I sometimes not get the jokes, even by professional comedians. And RMS never been a professional in this, so some rate of failure is expected. Making a huge deal out of it almost 40 years after it happened (to zero harm for anyone involved) is the insane part here. Especially as this seems to be the only documented episode of supposed myriads of harassment incidents RMS is supposedly famous for.
My perspective is that he made the threat in bad faith - trying to coerce the girl into going out with him, but without a truly deep depression and intention to kill himself. I expect there was and is at least some depression there - perhaps he really did consider killing himself but decided not to.
I am unfortunately very used to seeing people try to hide obnoxious behavior behind "it was just a joke, calm down," when people take offense instead of giving them what they want, so I very rarely find that explanation satisfactory.
There are other things feeding into my assessment that I haven't gone into - a story of him picking out one of the few women in a lecture hall as an "Emacs Virgin" and saying that in the Church of Emacs it is blessed to lose your virginity. Yeah, that clearly was a joke, but it was a tasteless one that gives a little too much insight into his perspective.
There's also the photo of his MIT office nameplate that said something like "Knight For Justice (also: hot ladies)" which, yes, is probably a joke, but reads like one of those "ha ha, only serious" jokes oldschool hackers are rather known for, and is once again a joke he absolutely shouldn't have been making (especially not from a position of power).
There are also the various hints on his website over the years that he was (and perhaps still is) single and frustrated by that. An anecdote about his official non-girlfriend stands out in my memory, as I recall.
It's not a "threat", since no reasonable people would take it seriously (just as no reasonable female would sue a suitor when he says "I am willing to give the whole world to you" but then refuses to give her mere $10000). If you ever been in a romantic relationship, you may know that courtship language involves some amount of flourish and exaggeration. Including worlds like "I can't live without you" and "you are the only thing my heart beats for" and so on. I could bring you a dozen examples from poetry, songs, etc. but I think you get my drift anyway.
Now, could the student in question genuinely misunderstand him and decide maybe he's genuinely suicidal? Maybe yes. People are weird. Maybe no, and she's misremembering or outright lying. Maybe the author of the article misunderstood or misquoted her (she's certainly motivated to do so as it's her only example of Stallman-female interaction over 30 year span which has anything objectionable at all, without it she's left with zero). There could be many options here. One option that is one of the least likely is that he genuinely "threatened" her - and it is obvious she didn't consider the threat seriously (otherwise she'd probably agree to a date and then call mental health services to report a suicidal person who's about to hurt himself). If somebody asked me to do something and I genuinely believed he'd kill himself if I didn't, I'd certainly not just say "no" and nonchalantly walk away.
> I am unfortunately very used to seeing people try to hide obnoxious behavior behind "it was just a joke, calm down,"
That happens. Many bad things happen. However, this has nothing to do with present case - Stallman is not Jesus sent to us to answer for the sins of the world. The only sins he has to answer for are his own, and so far the list is pretty thin.
> a story of him picking out one of the few women in a lecture hall as an "Emacs Virgin"
And? It may be not very tactful to single out a person (I am an introvert and can sympathize with hating being singled out) as a prop, but there's nothing sinister in it. Some social interactions aren't to everybody's liking, that happens. And the pearl-clutching over the word "virgin" is better left to a victorian era where the feet of the furniture were covered lest they suggest any dirty thoughts to anybody.
> is probably a joke
Probably? Seriously? Probably?
> a joke he absolutely shouldn't have been making (especially not from a position of power).
Why not? So, he declared himself a knight (people known - though often wrongly - for their chivalrous and courteous behavior towards females) for "hot ladies". And? What harm exactly did that do (and btw what terrible Power did Stallman have in MIT, except having his own office?)
> There are also the various hints on his website over the years that he was (and perhaps still is) single and frustrated by that
Oh horror. Now you really shocked me. He is single, but he doesn't want to remain single? What a pervert. And he dares to tell the word about the depth of this perversion - wanting to find a mate! I remember I've read in some depraved book (I am sorry, but I must confess to reading this clearly pornographic pamphlet for the sake of discussion - I was young and reckless back then): "It is a truth universally acknowledged that a single man in possession of a good fortune must be in want of a wife" - but I never thought I would encounter a real-life example of such a monstrous creature myself. Why didn't you say it from the start? That alone would be the proof of all allegations and more.
I will say that in my romantic relationships I have always striven to tell the truth - phrases like "I can't live without you" are not things I ever said. My wife would either laugh hysterically or be offended at my lack of connection to reality if I resorted to that sort of baseless hyperbole.
I freely acknowledge that we're unusual in that regard. It's a big part of what attracted us to each other.
Apart from that, I have little else of value to add to the conversation. It's become obvious our perspectives are strongly divergent, and while I understand yours, you're pushing me away from accepting your conclusions rather than encouraging me towards them.
For clarity's sake, I'll add that it's clear the media did in fact misrepresent Stallma terribly, and I wish they had not. Several publications summarized his statements about Epstein exactly wrong. Whether that was malicious or incompetence I can't know.
That does not materially change my perception of events (I never believed the misreports of what he said, as I went straight to the leaked email thread), nor of Stallman's character (he has always struck me as a pedantic literalist who espouses high ideals but is mean and rude to actual people who don't align with his ideals).
I don't know the man personally at all, so that perception should be taken with the proverbial grain of salt. I might be entirely wrong.
You are a unique human specimen that sets the example for all of us, the shining light, the city on the hill. However, even from the heights of your perfection you should be aware that average humans do engage in courtship which involves saying stuff like that, exaggerating, saying silly and pompous things, etc. If you read any literature, seen any movies, have any non-paragon-of-virtue friends, etc. That's how us, regular humans, flirt. Sometimes (obviously, there's no single script for it). Presenting it as some sinister "threat" is unfair and, frankly, insane.
> he has always struck me as a pedantic literalist who espouses high ideals but is mean and rude to actual people
Yes, Stallman can be mean and rude. I had an occasion to personally interact with him, and he was mean and rude to me, though it didn't matter much and I am not going to claim I was scarred for life - I only remember it because it involved Stallman, otherwise I shrugged it off. However, it's not and should not be a basis of unpersoning campaign and a pileup he was a target of, and I think he was treated very unjustly, and him being mean and rude sometimes does not justify such treatment. What was done to him was very wrong. That's the point.
Oh horror! How can a man be so depraved, so devoid of any common decency, so enthralled to his animalistic desires as to ask out a MIT undergraduate! Who'd even think such thing is possible in our enlightened time. We all thought we are way past MIT undergrads being asked out, but here we go again.
So every male at MIT is creepy then.
> defending adults having sex with children.
He was just arguing about the science available at the moment and even links the study on his website (everything is still there, he is not hiding anything)
Because nobody knows them.
But if it is creepy for RMS, it is for anyone else who did it.
Where is the outrage?
Half their age is perfectly legit if one is 25 and the other is 50.
You should be more precise.
I believe most of the men in positions of some power and acclaim at MIT aren't asking undergrads out, and yes, those that are shouldn't be in that position of power and/or acclaim.
> yes, those that are shouldn't be in that position of power and/or acclaim.
Why not? What's bad in asking a female student out? Is it some sort of crime for males to date females? Is it something only low-level males not occupying any positions allowed to do? It is bad if someone tries to use their power to coerce a female to a date, but if he just asks, and the female is not dependent on him in any way and is free to refuse if she doesn't find him attractive - what exactly is the problem here?
Seriously?
Epstein was really well-esteemed.
Weinstein was very well-esteemed
Polansky was very well-esteemed
Ethan Zuckerman (MIT) was very well-esteemed
Stallman did nothing of the sort.
They are just legends built around a weird guy who comes out creepy when tries to be friendly.
And they started because he was not popular in college but usually right
People hate the outcasts that expose their faults in public
It ruins their projected image
It hurts their giant ego
BTW: I've been young and creepy sometimes to women, they've been creepy to me (one even stalked me and my girlfriend), most of the time we've been cool around each other.
"She said, he said" is a very bad way to evaluate a person in an objective way.
"They told me that one time" it's the beginning of everyone's life, when you are 66 and lived the life Stallman has lived, that one time, repeated over and over, becomes almost a truth.
It's like John Lennon saying "The best drummer in the world? Ringo is not even the best drummer in The Beatles"
Or Ozzy Osbourne eating bats
Or Van Halen's "no brown M&M's" rule