Hacker News Reader

Comment by vivekd | Hacker News Reader

I think what she is saying is true, unfortunately the article is a bit shallow. I went into this article looking for examples of behaviours that mark people for victimization and strategies for changing those behaviours. I didn't find any, and despite searching I have yet to find a good guide to this anywhere.

There seems to be a vauge grey line between being properly assertive and being selfish or being a jerk. Finding the proper assertive behavior is especially a challenge for people who grew up in abusive circumstances and don't know proper boundaries.

View on HN

The links in the article (near the top, 3rd paragraph?) address the concern you raise about identifying frequently targeted behaviors and learning how to change them. It's a good question to ask! The answers I saw in those links accord with my experience, for whatever that's worth.

Speaking from that same experience, you're right that the border between assertiveness and assholishness is not clearly marked, not least because all people and situations are to at least some extent unique. I can recommend only cautious experiment as a means of developing an understanding of how to be assertive without being a dick.

There are multiple links in the article referencing what you seek.

> There seems to be a vauge grey line between being properly assertive and being selfish or being a jerk.

Do you know someone who is assertive yet polite? If so, mimic them for a while. Like many behaviors, it can simply be a matter of practicing.

What follows is my personal opinion. (Disclaimer, I'm a guy and I've not been abused, but I have had to deal with troublesome people and as a confrontation-avoidant person I've worked out some strategies for dealing with that. These strategies are more oriented towards avoiding panhandlers than avoiding abusers, but perhaps they can be useful.)

First, the interesting thing about "being selfish" and "being assertive" is that they actually overlap. If someone tells you that you're being selfish like it's a bad thing, that person is probably trying to manipulate you. They want you to stop being selfish so they can be selfish. This is literally how they try to get their way.

Another way to think about it is that "assertiveness" comes into play when there is a conflict of interest. You want X, the other party wants Y. In this situation there's no way to satisfy both X and Y. At this point you can fight for what you think is right, or you can fold. The other people want you to fold, and if they're abusive, they're going to try and insult you or make you feel stupid until you do.

Which brings me to some concrete recommendations for being "assertive:"

1. When walking, look like you have somewhere important to go. You're not meandering casually, you're walking with purpose. You're in charge. People are much less likely to approach you if it looks like you're going to turn them down immediately.

2. In conversation, use the "fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me" approach. Operate in good faith until you feel that good faith is being abused, then retract it. Don't be angry, but don't let it happen again. "Forgive, but don't forget."

3. Don't apologize for things you didn't do. If you are afraid and feel like you have to apologize, then do it verbally but don't believe it. Tell yourself that you're lying to this person about being sorry. You're not sorry. You're tricking them because they refuse to accept the truth.

4. Think about the reasons people say what they do. Words coming out of a mouth are like symptoms of the mental state of the person. Don't just take them at face value but ask yourself: "Why are they saying this?"

5. If possible, find people you trust who can be a sounding board. Especially if you think your own "assertiveness compass" is whack. Err on the rude side. Then literally describe your encounters to the trusted party afterwards and ask whether you were rude, so you can refine your social barometer.

6. Protect yourself! You're a living organism and you should be your number one priority. Nobody else has the right to make your decisions for you.

Hopefully that's helpful to someone. But like I said, I'm coming at it from a bit of a different angle, so I welcome any feedback / questions.

I agree a lot with you. But something about the definition of assertiveness you gave...

I think it's better to approach it as a means of making sure you are taking care of yourself, so you have the ability to take care of others.

Like, let's put it in terms of being forced to work late. Why should you do it? For the same reason you work that job anyways. To provide for yourself and/or for your family. Either you are spending time on your family(or yourself) or you're making sure they(or just you) have a roof/food/etc. Thus, if you have to work late, you don't do it for free. You already miss out on family/me time. Thus, you get financially compensated. When you go with that mindset, the conversation naturally functions differently. This is how I negotiate contracts too. I don't discount. I never do. I always get something of equal value in return. If you just willy nilly throw out 10% of your quote, obviously you lack personal value. Whether it's money now, money later or bartering, I hold to my value. I dont think anyone should throw out personal value for the needs of others without truly good reason.

The definition of "being assertive" that I go by is to express your own needs/wants clearly. I agree that there is overlap with selfishness. That's because expressing all of your needs and wants can upset others, and you know that it's not realistic for you to have everything you might want, whenever you want it, and that to try to make that happen would mean taking from others.

However, I would say that there definitely are times when you can express what you want, and not take away anything from anyone else. I would also say that in some situations, it's a matter of protecting yourself, avoiding committing to projects you don't believe you'll be able to deliver on, for example. There are people who are not assertive, and say "yes" to everything to try and avoid upsetting others. However, they end up taking on too much and not delivering, which is harmful to others in the long term. In that case, being assertive and saying "no", might seem selfish in the long term, but is actually beneficial for everyone in the long term.

This is a great writeup and mirrors a lot of what I worked on in therapy for addressing issues I had with asserting myself.

Many times I would feel uncomfortable discussing a course of action and would say "that seems really selfish to me" and my therapist would tell me "It is selfish, and the goal of our work is to help you understand that being selfish is not always a negative thing."

Reply on news.ycombinator.com