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Yup. One of the great mysteries of the world is how Americans think they are so straightforward and direct and honest... and then they ask a German if their butt looks big in these pants, and burst into tears on hearing the answer.

On a mildly more serious note, I remember well my first ever serious business meeting in the US, where we pitched a potential joint venture to another company. 30 minutes of mutual praise about the awesome potential of the idea and positive affirmations of how we're totally going to do this ensued... and immediately after we left, my (American) business partner dropped the smile, said "welp, that went badly" and stated that there was no way in hell they'd proceed. Which proved to be the case.

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This is something of a misunderstanding of American culture. It's far more complex than can be summarized in a HN comment, but it's more accurate to say that American culture prides itself on accessibility, egalitarianism, and a "lack of barriers" more than directness, defined as pure unfiltered honesty, per se.

A good example to illustrate this phenomenon: in most American cities, it is considered fairly normal, even expected, to talk to strangers on the bus, in the street, in line at the grocery store. There is no mental "barrier" to overcome in the public sphere. However, one is typically expected to be polite and not overly direct while interacting with strangers.

The same activity, contrarily, is borderline verboten in German culture. The typical German will rarely engage in spontaneous conversation with a stranger, even if he/she would be extremely direct (in American terms) if such a conversation were to occur.

On a recent trip to Italy I experienced all of what you attribute to the US in a way that makes my typical US experience seem full of pointless boundaries and distance. The grocery store was a huge social scene that they let me, a foreigner, in on. I was given plenty of unsolicited life advice in train stations. Most of that would be called inappropriate in polite circles in the US.

I wondered how much this was that my ancestry is half Italian so I looked the part. My wife seemed in contrast much more likely to be figured as a foreigner and given distance.

This resonates with my recent experience. I'm Indian, but I live in Europe, and during a recent trip to the US, I was amazed by how easy going the people were. I was able to have nice conversations with random locals. From a nice uncle spontaneously telling us about the history of Santa Cruz to a stranger helping us park the car properly in SF, to jolly waiters in restaurants, it all felt very human. I find it quite hard to make small talk in European cities. I used to think it's the language barrier, but I realize now that it might be more than that.

Plenty of US cities aren't like that. You're going to get a wayyy different response talking to random people on the NYC public transit than in SF. Seattle has the infamous "Freeze", and DC has that government contractor omerta thing going on.

Santa Cruz is a whole 'nother creature too.

I'm a government contractor in DC and I'm thankful to you for teaching me the word "omerta."

Would you please explain? Thanks!

It is more than that. To talk to a stranger in Europe, you need a "reason" (or an excuse), otherwise it's weird.

>The typical German will rarely engage in spontaneous conversation with a stranger

This is true, but there is one great exception: if you are with small children. Many Germans get very warm and smily, and are happy to start talking with you, at least about your kids.

Same in the uk, and also for dogs.

> The same activity, contrarily, is borderline verboten in German culture. The typical German

The most disparaging remark to keeping the distance in Germany will include something along the lines of "Kenne ich Sie?" (Do I know you?). This essentially means "Don't you ever dare to talk to me you piece of HOOOPS!".

I found this especially true in certain social circles. People with some sort of so-called elitist pedigree, traces of former nobility for example, used to react like that. They know each other and strangers are shot down this way.

Funny! ;)

>borderline verboten in German culture. The typical German will rarely engage in spontaneous conversation

I spent a year in Germany as an exchange student. I still return every few years to visit friends and just because I'm in love with the place. I have so many random conversations with strangers there about all topics. These take place in trains, pubs, parks, etc.

IME, contrasted to America, German "leisure" is more about experiencing and valuing downtime. IME American leisure involves tentatively exchanging anxieties, butt-sniffing to see who's on what side. This may be skewed bc I'm an American who can speak German somewhat well, so I'm a bit of a curiosity over there.

I miss that German mode of relaxation. Of course, there are plenty of people on both sides of the pond whose relaxation involves equipment, gear and challenges. But in Germany, I find people much more comfortable enjoying downtime, doing little to nothing at all, staying open to experiences, wandering and talking to strangers about random topics. IME, they tend to be more confident and less blustering than Americans when asserting themselves. It's as if they aware of the depth of subjective experience and feel safe presenting themselves.

Whereas in the U.S., I feel people entering that mode preface their presentation with implied threats. It gives me the feeling that I can't authentically respond, not with a threat. I'm thinking of biker/right-wing types as well as skittish soccer parents here. They're not open; they're spreading their tribe. It seems to reflect a humble image of one's self and country as part of a bigger whole, whereas in the U.S., the bigger whole is simply one's tribe and its competition with others. This may all be skewed by my own insecurities around strong persona...

Are you German? perhaps you're more aware of internalized social anxieties and pressures than I experience as a visitor there? I've got a more or less Zen mind, but also great curiosity and impulse to communicate, so I probably draw out the social ones. Of course, I do encounter many "grumpy" Germans who don't want to talk, but the same is true in the U.S.

No, I'm American but I've spent a considerable amount of time in Germany specifically and Europe generally. Most people find that Americans are more approachable than Germans. My experience was the same. That's not to say that I prefer one to the other; they are simply different cultures.

Maybe your experience was different, but your whole comment seems to implicitly have a problem with Americans, so I'm dubious as to exactly how neutral your sentiments are.

> This may all be skewed by my own insecurities...

I think you answered your own question there.

I've never heard of Americans thinking/saying they were direct. In my case I see our culture as the opposite, as this page seems to demonstrate. Corporate double-speak is a well-known thing here (I presume its similar in many places, but I don't know), and I'm sure most people like me were taught "if you don't have anything nice to say don't say anything at all". A common trope in child programs when I grew up was that being honest but hurtful was "incorrect".

Perhaps subtle cues or assumptions create such imagery of directness for those on the outside? Not that I take issue with your characterization, I just wonder how it came to be.

Throughout my (American) childhood, I was always told that harmful lies were bad, but various purported sources of moral lessons (books, shows, etc.) had different ideas about "white lies." Some were all for them ("It's a lie, but we say it because we love them!"); others took the line "It's better to be honest even if it's hard."

Of course, there was a very common character trope with some kid who was told "Honesty is always the best policy," and who then proceeded to go around telling people (e.g.) that yes, their butts did in fact look too big. inevitably annoying all the adults they were honest with.

To any foreigners wondering, no, none of us enjoy the fake corporate double-speak either. Things like asking, "How are you?" and never wanting an actual answer are of course too engrained in our culture for most of us to even notice. But the extreme levels this gets taken to in the corporate setting is almost offensive. In the worst offenders, any exchange even close to approaching confrontational is liable to get you labeled as "difficult to work with." But this has almost less to do with our general culture, and more to do with corporations' need for bland, compliant, agreeable clone-employees.

> had different ideas about "white lies."

Maybe, without going all sapir-whorf, the common use of an idiomatic "white lies" expression might mean something, like, say, the existence of "jeitinho" in brazilian portuguese.

Well, it all depends who you compare to. I too heard many times of Americans being direct, but usually it's said in comparison to British people, and in that case it's fairly true I guess. On the other hand, compared to say Mediterranean or Balkans, no, you're not direct at all :)

I don't think more direct at all. Perhaps more direct than southerners, particularly London, but hardly compared to northerners or Scots. More determined to bring overstatement and excess superlatives certainly, while British are the inverse and overdo the understatement.

"This is good" En-GB: "Not bad, I 'spose", "it'll do" En-US: "Awesome man, incredible", "I'm excited you asked, amazing"

I will retire never having used "exciting" in a work context. :)

With apologies to both sides of the Atlantic.

>I've never heard of Americans thinking/saying they were direct.

They wont say it for themselves, but it's something very common to hear Americans and foreigners say/write as a fact for Americans in general (ie. the culture). Some areas even compete/praise themselves on how more direct they are (New Yorkers come to mind).

Of course, compared to a culture with a lot of innuendo and second guessing required, like e.g. the Japanese, or more subtle and ironic, like the English, that would be very true, but not in general.

> Some areas even compete/praise themselves on how more direct they are (New Yorkers come to mind).

In the US I frequently cite that I am an east coaster to explain why I don't play the politeness game as in this phrasebook, and people seem to accept that explanation. (Or perhaps they say they accept it but don't give a shit, as some of the phrasebook might suggest.)

Likewise, I often explain to people that I'm from the midwest. Sometimes it helps cut through the bullshit, sometimes it doesn't.

> One of the great mysteries of the world is how Americans think they are so straightforward and direct and honest... and then they ask a German if their butt looks big in these pants, and burst into tears on hearing the answer.

The Culture Map by Erin Meyer goes into this a bit; one of the key traits she uses to assess cross-cultural communication is how directly cultures give/take negative feedback.

There are two things to reply to here from that book:

1. The stereotype for a lot of the world is that Americans are direct, much like you said here -- but this isn't the case for ALL types of communication.

2. There's a scale specifically for negative feedback from "direct" to "indirect" for various cultures and the US is shown in the middle of that scale.

The UK is also listed around the middle, but more toward the "indirect" side than the US.

For more extreme examples, Russia, Germany, and France are listed as tending toward more direct negative feedback, whereas Japan and Indonesia are listed as tending toward more indirect negative feedback.

It's a fascinating book that really opened my eyes about ways to perceive cultures and communication, so if this is anything you're at all interested in, I'd really recommend it.

> On a mildly more serious note, I remember well my first ever serious business meeting in the US, where we pitched a potential joint venture to another company. 30 minutes of mutual praise about the awesome potential of the idea and positive affirmations of how we're totally going to do this ensued... and immediately after we left, my (American) business partner dropped the smile, said "welp, that went badly" and stated that there was no way in hell they'd proceed.

This kind of situation is also discussed in the book! ;)

Edit: I bring this book up relatively frequently, but I'm not associated with the publisher or author at all. The book was an absolute revelation for me in that it gave me a way to conceptualize cultural differences rather than the traditional/stereotypical "good/bad" scale, so I like to pay it forward and recommend it to people who seem like they might be interested in it.

I'll second the recommendation for The Culture Map, I found it very useful.

>One of the great mysteries of the world is how Americans think they are so straightforward and direct and honest... and then they ask a German if their butt looks big in these pants, and burst into tears on hearing the answer.

Or how they ask a friend/relative/acquaintance "How have you been" and expect just a fake generic "fine" or similar, not the actual story of how you were, as told in several (at least European I know of) countries...

Non-Americans always harp on this yet don't understand that "How are you?" is just functioning as a generic "Hello" and not as a literal question. This happens in every language with various phrases.

For example, the phrase for "Hello" in most European languages directly translates to "Good Day." It is not as if people are saying "Good Day" in any literal sense of the words; the meaning implied is "Hello."

>Non-Americans always harp on this yet don't understand that "How are you?" is just functioning as a generic "Hello" and not as a literal question. This happens in every language with various phrases.

We very much understand that.

Our problem/concern/issue is that you don't seem to expect/appreciate the outpour of how one has been in the first place, whereas elsewhere it's a natural part of meeting the other person...

That is, it's not like:

"'how are you?' just means hello, but we have another phrase to say if you want the other person to really tell you how they've been/feel when you meet them".

It's more like:

"Actually telling the other person how you've been/feel is discouraged, nobody cares that much for you, period".

What really gets me every time (and I'm on a US trip right now) is that they say the words but expect no response. I'll walk into a store and the dialog goes:

- Hi, how are you? - I'm fine, how are y... - What can I get you?

They don't mean to cut me off, it's just obvious they mistimed my response. What my American friends do:

- Hi, how are you? - Hello, how are you? - What can I get you?

It's very odd to me how neither responds to the other's question, but it really is used as a generic greeting.

That is very odd to me as an American. Lots of these things are regional though.

"How's it going?" when used as a greeting, is typically only used in brief interactions, like passing someone in the hallway.

In a longer conversation, there are numerous phrases (including "How are you?") which, combined with the fact that the conversation is extended (i.e. you are both sitting at a table, or haven't seen each other in awhile) are universally assumed to mean that the person wants to know "how you are." It's a sort of game that one does subconsciously.

I can see how it appears to be nonsensical and random, but there is definitely a method to the madness, and I wouldn't say that American people care less about asking people how they are.

"Hello"

"I've had a rough week, my dog died and I'm having trouble focusing at work. Hello to you, too."

For Chinese, "Ni Hao" literally means "you good", equivalent to "hello".

If you actually want to ask someone how they're going, the phrase is "Ni Hao Ma", which is literally the question: "you good?"

The question version isn't something you'd normally use. It might be appropriate on meeting a friend if you knew they'd been recently ill.

With the difference that “Good Day” is something you wish uppon others while “How are you?” is a question that also exists outside of the smalltalk context.

You can ask “How are you?” with genuine interest and get a genuine answer in the right context.

These things are complicated though. I’m a kiwi and on moving to the UK it took ages to figure out that “alright?” meant “hello”, not “what’s wrong?”

Where I live (a corner of Ireland) people say "Well?" for hello. I think it's short for "Are you well?"

This was brought up in some sales training I once had. Basically the instructor suggested not using the phrase when you don’t really want an answer, ie most business contexts.

And yet the current American president is renowned the world over for using unusually direct and simple language.

'Americans are straightfoward' to me has always meant that when a large group of Americans decide what to do they'll fight it out in public with big, well defined interest groups coalescing around well broadcast opinions. Very transparent. No real nuance at the strategic level; usually simple opinions like 'more money to X' or 'we want a Y' (although often quite a sophisticated execution). Generally clear why people believe what they do. Compare that to the traditional British approach where there is a lot more emphasis on silly pageantry and maintaining dignity in public, like the basic fundamental absurdity of pretending a monarch is somehow more worthy than any other. Americans literally wouldn't stand for pretending that unless they were making money off it somehow.

For all the complicated details of politeness in the small, Americans in large groups are generally crystal clear about what they do and do not like.

I have to laugh at the notion that British politics is "dignified". The House of Commons is a melee of shouting and heckling punctuated by an increasingly haggard-looking man shouting "ORDAAAA" whenever it gets too rowdy, which seems to be every 2 minutes or so.

Did you see Bercow has resigned? I'll miss his distinctive roar.

I have, yeah. I can't blame him. Even compared to a few months ago he looks very tired, and doesn't seem to have the same enthusiasm he once did. I don't know if that's related to the controversies about some of his decisions, but it's certainly a job that one needs a lot of energy for.

Americans who think of themselves as straightforward and direct and honest are usually thinking of themselves in comparison to other Anglophone cultures. Since very few of us speak German or go to Germany, we wouldn't know how direct they are anyway.

> and then they ask a German if their butt looks big in these pants, and burst into tears on hearing the answer.

Is there even a correct answer to this kind of question?

That's like asking the self-driving car engineer about the answer to trolley problems.

The correct strategy is not to get into those situations in the first place.

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