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Comment by owenwil | Hacker News Reader

The 'phones home' argument doesn't really add up—there's plenty of control over this at this point, and every OS is calling home, macOS included, to some degree. The advertisements thing happens out of the box, and is trivial to remove (if my memory is correct, Safari harasses you about being the default browser, too, if you try to change it). The updates to add features thing.... isn't an issue for me, but YMMV.

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Control?

My OS does not phone home.

It contacts package mirrors when I ask it to and only when I ask it to.

It contacts NTP servers because I specifically enabled that.

That's it. By contrast Windows is a black box of nonsense.

The copy I have running in a VM has the marketing name "Cortana" process running even though I specifically chose "no" at install.

I enabled a data limit the other day and played some games. The game used 30MB and the combined OS used >60MB doing who knows what despite the fact it tells me updates are not downloaded on metered connections.

Sorry, no, there is no excuse for this. If it's not opt in, it's malware. If it's opt in defaulted to yes and with no clear benefit to the user, it's malware.

Obviously: we don’t care. Apple and Microsoft do roughly an equal amount of telemetry. Ubuntu has telemetry.

Obviously most people are fine with telemetry.

Apple charges WAY more for its OS than Microsoft does for Windows 10 Home Edition. Don’t want adds? Buy the Pro version.

This “apples are better than oranges” indignation about Windows 10 is getting old. Don’t like it? Fine. Let other people enjoy things they like.

Things get pushed on people, and most are not even aware enough for the question "do they care?" to even become meaningful.

We're moving from sofware you run without any interference to subscription and surveillance models, and that's not because users want that, that's not "what they like", they don't have an easy way to get what they do like while also being treated ethically.

They have enough alternatives. Free alternatives at that! If they don’t switch, then that’s their choice and they are obviously fine with it.

The whole “Windows telemetry bad” meme is mostly just an excuse for a flame war.

No, being aware of something is the prerequisite of being fine with something. And for people who just walk into to a store and buy a computer with preinstalled OS, telemetry is pretty much the default, as you said previously.

I guess you could say companies are obviously afraid of offering the choice, of offering the same product with and without telemetry, clearly labeled.

> The whole “Windows telemetry bad” meme is mostly just an excuse for a flame war.

Why are you putting such mocking words into my mouth? I'm not saying "Windows telemetry bad", I'm saying what I'm saying.

Sorry, I didn’t mean to say you were mocking. But the whole narrative on HN does feel like that and is essentially a tribal, condescending thing.

I would think differently if I saw the same amount of criticism towards other products which commit similar if not worse “offenses”. MacOS does a comparable amount of telemetry. Ubuntu does telemetry (albeit presumably less).

If telemetry as done by OS providers is an offense, then half the tech industry is built on top of even more severe privacy offenses. Can you imagine any serious digital product NOT doing what is essentially telemetry? Imagine online ad companies NOT spying on you? I mean, if it offends you, then sure, voice your discontents. But if a collective in aggregate constantly criticizes minor offenses by one player but lets other players off the leash for way more, it’s not about privacy, sorry.

Also, I don’t agree that people are ignorant. Most of media coverage about Windows 10 revolved around its telemetry. It’s asked when you install it. It’s in the settings. I mean, if you don’t care about it after that then you don’t care.

Personally, I think telemetry is OK. So I’m not bothered, as long as it’s not outright spying. I’m also OK with paying more for Windows 10 Pro to not have the stupid ads.

Please tell me how much Apple charges for its OS

Some part of the ridiculous margins they put on the hardware you're required to have to legally run the OS.

Well, yeah.

Personally this is probably the process by which I become a luddite. You can pry my free OS from my cold dead hands.

For now, the server market is enough to keep general purpose computing going. In twenty years, who knows?

My friends and family who are not power users don't know enough to even understand what malware is or means. They likely never will, just as they don't understand all of the ingredients in their food.

This doesn't make it OK.

The cortana process includes elements of local search indexing. Part of the cortana 'integration' included rebranding existing local functionality as cortana.

> Safari harasses you about being the default browser

But does it advertise to you by default? This seems not comparable at all. Pretty much every browser will want you to set it as default (and at least the option to stop the nagging is usually front and center).

Maybe this is just me, but advertising by default in something as basic as a start screen seems very user hostile....

I get semi-regular notifications in macOS telling me I should give Safari another try and I haven't found any way to turn them off.

That’s interesting, I switched to Chrome months ago and haven’t seen any — even though I might open Safari from time to time.

I’ve been on macOS (OS X) for over a decade, never used Safari as the default browser, and have no idea what you’re referring to.

Ditto, and I get them occasionally.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20815831

I may have found what you’re referring to and how to disable it[1][2].

[1]: Original blog post: https://www.ctrl.blog/entry/how-to-osx-try-safari-promotion....

[2]: Archival link, for future-proofing: https://web.archive.org/web/20190814011835/https://www.ctrl....

I have been on MacOS for a few years now and I have never received a notification about safari.

Every time you go to check updates for macOS you have to see ads in their app store. Not only that, but Apple installs a ton of apps I don’t need, which are essentially advertised by simply existing on my launchpad. Things just show up after an update and I don’t see a difference between that and some third-party apps that Microsoft puts on the start menu for you.

This is no longer true on the latest macOS; OS updates are no longer delivered via the app store. (You get to it via settings, or you can get to it via the apple menu in the top bar.)

But anyway, I figure the app store is a place I go to get apps, and if the app store chooses to offered paid placement in that list, at least that's sort of relevant. My start area... is a place I go to use basic functionality of the machine. There is no implication that I want to install anything, or buy anything.

Has Apple ever installed a third-party app on your system? macOS is a batteries-included OS, I think most people consider the wide variety of first-party apps to be a feature not a bug. And if you want a specific app, type its name into Spotlight and you don't even have to hunt and peck through all the icons.

1. Updates are done through settings.

2. Advertising is communication about a product or service. A product is not advertising in itself, logic doesn't work like that.

It's also worth differentiating what one gets: free, quality apps with a decent privacy policy vs. pay to win games in Windows.

You're trying a too hard to excuse customer-hostile behavior and it's embarrassing.

> You're trying a too hard to excuse customer-hostile behavior and it's embarrassing.

That was rude. I’m telling it like I see it. Did I offend your favorite OS or corporation or something like that? Why get personal with me??

1. OS updates had not been done through settings for a long, long time. However updates to Apples preinstalled applications are done through the App Store... Anyway, if it was OK for Apple to do through their store for 10-15 years, then it should be fine for Microsoft to do something comparable now. Right?

2. There are no ads in the Windows start menu according to your definition either then because Candy Crush simply exists as an icon there. As a matter fact I just setup a new Windows laptop last night and I didn’t see one ad. Just some preinstalled apps.

Are you sure that you know what you’re talking about?

I did a brand new Windows install recently and it had all sorts of icons for apps in the Start Menu that aren't made by Microsoft. Candy Crush, some racing game, some other game, Spotify. In fact, some of these "pre-installed" apps weren't even installed (like crapware is) at all. They were icons that install the apps (or take you to the store) once you click them.

You honestly don't think those are ads? It's Microsoft pushing "install this!" icons for third-party apps from the store in your face in a non-related UI place in the OS, that you have not chosen to install. There is no other proper name for that than an ad. The apps are not even remotely related to Windows as a product and you don't have to even go to the store to see them- they are in a standard OS menu.

To be fair- I don't (as much) mind some Microsoft products being treated this way (OneDrive, Skype), because I would expect the creator of the OS to push their own stuff.

There is zero comparison to the MacOS App Store (where obviously there would be ads for apps... because it's a store... for apps.) If Apple started putting Candy Crush, Racing Games, and Spotify in my Dock on a new install- I would have just as much a problem with that.

Wayneftw does think those are ads, and argued that they are ads when Apple installs not-requested software. Then blub argued that Apple is different because products aren't ads, so wayneftw said that if they're not ads when Apple does it, they're not ads when Microsoft does it.

"Around 2014, over 93 million people were playing Candy Crush Saga[..] Five years after its release on mobile, the Candy Crush Saga series has received over 2.7 billion downloads, and the game has been one of the highest-grossing and most-played mobile apps in that time frame." - Wikipedia

Is there no way to explain this as "giving an easy way to find Candy Crush to the millions of paying customers who want that"? Isn't HN always on about "build things people want"?

You're playing some kind of game where me and others have to repeatedly explain things to you in detail, only for you to come up with yet another technicality to trip us up and waste our time.

A significant amount of people view games like Candy Crush as crapware and those so-called icons as ads. There are articles from multiple reputable publications discussing how to turn off start menu ads. Some Microsoft-developed Windows 10 apps also have ads and yes there's guidelines available on how to get rid of them.

It seems that many MS customers have spoken, and they think MS's approach to ads sucks. And we will continue to complain about that, even if those ads don't match your strange definition of what an as is or should be.

Huh? I made one comment and you immediately acted like I’d posted 20 times in this thread…

Anyway, as others have pointed out to you… Many many many people enjoy candy crush. Look it up pal :-)

Nothing, absolutely nothing that you’ve said to me has changed my view. Apple also puts crapware that I don’t want on my Mac and others in this thread have agreed with me. The fact that you don’t think it’s crapware has zero bearing on this conversation.

macOS is way more expensive as well. Compare it with Windows 10 Pro for a fairer price point and ads are not a problem all of a sudden.

How is it more expensive. The last macOS I had to pay for was mountain lion. That was 10.8. I get that I have to buy a mac to get the os but once I have it, I get the most recent version of macOS for free from the AppStore.

https://www.apple.com/shop/help/downloadable_software

The price is included in the price of the whole product.

I mean, it’s not the price of materials that dominate Apple’s pricing. And you actually have to pay money to people developing the OS. So no, it’s not free.

You're paying for the brand, design, etc. Yes, Apple funds OS development though other sales, but it's not sold separately and new OS releases are free. As far as I understand the law, I can legally install macOS on a machine that did not originally come with it installed (hackintosh), with the caveat that I violate Apple's EULA by doing so.

Microsoft bundles all sorts of software with their OS that can be installed separately for free, does that mean they're actually not free because development is funded through other product sales? A lot of their services have a free tier, are those services not free because there's a paid tier?

Apple's inflated hardware price certainly includes room for funding their OS development, but that doesn't mean the OS isn't free. Windows sales also likely go toward funding things other than OS development, but that doesn't mean that all of their products aren't free if you're running them on Windows.

That’s a bit of confusing things. My argument is that regardless of how these products are funded, they ARE funded and their target segment is different based on that source of funding.

MacOS is a premium product. Windows 10 Home edition is obviously not. You mention yourself in another comment that you estimate the cost of it to be around $40.

HN collectively throwing a fit because Windows 10 Home doesn’t fit their needs is silly, because they are not the target audience.

IF you intend to compare macOS with Windows, you need to compare same market segments, i.e. macOS and Windows 10 Pro.

The overpriced hardware (usually the same of other OEMs, like DELL) is including the price of the OS itself.

Yes, but if I buy a dell with Windows 10, and MS releases Windows 11 a month from now, I will (most likely, based on each previous release), have to buy a license of Windows 11. Apple used to do that until 10.8.

Ads are always a problem because they're manipulative communication.

Forcing ads through the OS os is also very aggressive and rude, because there's no way to turn them off.

Well, you can get another OS, no? It’s not like it’s a monopoly.

Oh yeah, plenty of control. Just book the afternoon off and follow this handy-dandy guide:

https://github.com/adolfintel/Windows10-Privacy

People follow dangerous guides like this and then complain Windows doesn't work well. For example, following this guide turns off 'Let Windows track app launches to improve Start and search results'. You then see loads of posts on hacker news complaining that start menu search doesn't give them their most used apps at the top.

Start menu search is garbage regardless of tinkering with those internals. Source: have had unmodified 10 for a couple of years.

> every OS is calling home to some degree.

It's funny to speak in absolutes. Plenty of operating systems don't phone home regularly, just not ones popular with consumers.

Is every OS running kernel traces and uploading them to the mothership behind your back? Have a look at C:\Windows\System32\SleepStudy C:\Windows\System32\LogFiles\WMI

You can also search for *.etl files to find what is traced. There are Autologger and GlobalLogger for live kernel tracing. Some of the tracing entries are present by default, but others are added by Intel's drivers! I could not control my anger when I discovered it. And it's not the .sys files, but the .inf files that add entries to Autologger. Now if I need to install Intel's drivers I first clean the .inf files. It ruins driver's signature of course, but at least I will not have any tracing sessions constantly written to disk.

There a lot of whataboutisms here.

MS shouldn't do phone home, OSX shouldn't do it, and I'm pretty sure my work CentOS doesn't do it. This should be the default, and you should have to opt in, preferably for some period, for it to happen.

For ads, this should be disabled by default, and the user should be compensated in some way for receiving ads on an OS they paid for. Also, these and Candy Crush seem to be re-enabled after some updates.

Counterpoint: users are mostly fine with telemetry on average. Users ARE compensated by a cheaper OS license in case of Windows 10.

How are users “compensated” with a cheaper OS licenses in Windows 10. Most everyone uses the OS included with their device and will rarely pay for an update.

It doesn’t mean it’s free.

When you buy a Mac Book you usually dish out around 1500 USD at the very least, where the cost of materials is at best 1/3 of that. You mostly pay for the design, the OS and the privilege.

You can get a PC with Windows 10 Home Edition for 400 USD or so. The implied price point for the OS is way lower.

The economic decision here (re ads) is to be able to make some money on the mass low-end market, while still being able to develop a decent OS.

Case in point: Microsoft Surface Book, which runs at about 2000 USD and is a product comparable to Apple’s has no ads.

Maybe part of that decision is because so many people pirate Windows and are unwilling to pay for it, they’re trying to earn money through advertising instead...

Very good point! Thank you, I haven't thought about it this way.

Afaik, Microsoft doesn't make much from large OEM sales since they give such a steep discount. I asked Lenovo to reduce the price on my laptop because I wouldn't be using Windows, so they gave me ~$40 discount and asked me to not enable Windows (which I didn't). This tells me that Windows for OEMs is around that price, which is less than half of the retail price.

Also, a $400 laptop is hardly comparable to a $1500 Apple laptop. I've had one of those, and the hardware really sucks, and stuff starts breaking within a year. It may have the same CPU, but the rest of the components are really crappy. If you want an closer comparison, compare high end laptops with the Apple laptops (Lenovo X- series, Dell XPS series, etc), which run at a much more similar price. If they're lower, it's because they have more competition than Apple does (Apple doesn't license its OS to competitors, so if you want their OS, you must buy their hardware).

macOS does not harass you about being the default browser. All it does is show a separator in the dropdown menu [1], which I've always assumed to indicate that it's "built-in". Meanwhile, Windows will show "Recommended" next to Edge, show a pop-up asking you to try Edge before switching the default browser, and then continue to harass you every time you use Bing from a different browser on Windows. Chrome does the latter on Google as well.

1: https://imgur.com/xqnueDe

Oh, and then it will still open Edge from Cortana queries and other places.

That and for some reason it seems like Edge likes to try very hard to keep itself the default PDF reader. Very annoying.

Fortunately, it's not bad as a PDF viewer. That doesn't excuse it, it just makes it less annoying.

and every OS is calling home

There's OSes beyond Windows and OSX.

Last I checked, my Linux and BSD systems don't phone home. I primarily use openSUSE, Arch, and FreeBSD, with some Debian thrown in, and I know none of those phone home by default (and I don't know if there's a way to ask them to phone home). There may be other OSes in those families that do (I've heard Ubuntu does), but that's completely fine since you have a choice (I can run any Linux or BSD app on another OS in the same family that doesn't phone home).

You cannot disable or control the phoning home. It’s pervasive. MS is obsessed with using telemetry to track everything you do, and they don’t believe users should have a choice.

they don’t believe users should have a choice.

Microsoft adds more telemetry in PowerShell 3: https://devblogs.microsoft.com/powershell/new-telemetry-in-p...

And there is an opt out. Guess they do believe users should have a choice.

Guess again!

OK. the .NET Core SDK includes telemetry, here's the official documentation: https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/dotnet/core/tools/telemetry

Section three, "How to opt out".

I guess the same way again.

You’ve found a way to opt out of one particular thing that they collect. This is irrelevant to the broader issue. You can’t opt out of all of the hundreds of other things they collect across the other products. There is no way to opt out entirely for Windows.

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