In my part of Europe I expect software engineers to specifically have a university level engineer diploma ("diploma engineer"), and non-engineering MSc computer science graduates to go with some other title.

Frankly that may be becoming a bit unreasonable expectation considering the international use of the title, that's what I just grew up with.

As a fellow Canadian I avoid the title. What's wrong with software developer? I don't do engineering, from the perspective of a P.Eng. I've only worked with one P.Eng to my knowledge and he couldn't do software engineering either (he wasn't even a particularly good software developer). I've heard of people doing things that sound like real engineering wrt software, but I've never actually met anyone who did it. I don't really travel in those circles.

However, I've worked with a fair number of really good software developers, who I think have earned that title. An iron ring means nothing to me in the work that I do. I don't suppose that you meant to imply that it did, but there is often some weird idea that an engineer is better than a developer. I'm not sure where that idea came from.

Don't they have Software Engineering as an engineering degree in Canada?

But I agree that I'm not a fan of using software engineer and programmer interchangeably.

Who cares.

It's a horrible misnomer of a title, I agree, but here in the states it has stuck for several cascading reasons:

* there's no FE exam needed to call oneself a "software engineer"

* the MBAs doing the hiring have gone through school hearing "software engineer" and so they mentally place them alongside other engineers

* companies hiring software developers don't care to differentiate between a engineer/developer, and as a result...

* software developers (from senior level all the way down to bootcamp graduates) don't give a shit and will put "Engineer" on their resume

I concur. As much as it pains me to realize I'd lose the comfort of the title if someone pushed it.

As a for instance; I'm a high friction actor in software implementations. I dig into the requirements, question the excessive ones, point out when implementations are starting to approach the macabre, and do my best to pressure companies away from being excessively intrusive in their data gathering or use of dark UX.

I've been asked more than once just who it is I think I'm working for informally, and warned at least once via indirect threat that I'm treading on thin ice.

While I'm not technically an Iron Ringer, I've always done my best to live up to the ideal in my practice. Without a PE for Software Engineering and the regulatory framework that comes with it though, for every one of practitioners like me who push to preserve the public's interest first, there are thousands pushing without a second thought to the consequences of what they are making.

Every risk management data corpus, every shortcut taken around regulations, every expedient hack can only have a protest lodged against it, and a suggestion of an alternate implementation given before the inevitable bouncing up and ignoring of the advisement.

In this type of environment, all one can do is puck their battles carefully until more steingent regulation gives one more leverage to bring to the table.

> It just doesn't feel like it's been earned.

It hasn't. On the other hand, the gravitas of the "engineer" title has significantly eroded to business titles so much that "real engineers" are rarely seen with a seat at the table where power convenes. I don't know if this is just a local minima over the span of history, or the new normal. I hope it is the former, but I have reasons to suspect it will actually get worse.

The political power haloed around the "engineer" title, and thus the capacity to affect real, lasting change within organizations, is significantly less than the various equivalent-level management titles. It has eroded to the point that it is a notable anomaly when people remark, "the company is run by engineers". In some circles like some (not all) VC, they use that phrase to damn with faint praise.