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Comment by sandworm101 | Hacker News Reader

>> sometime in the 2020s when an electric vehicle becomes cheaper than a gas car.

Maybe, but the limitations of electric vehicles still mean it is an apple and oranges comparison. Electric cars are still a long way off in terms of range, towing capacity, utility and winter performance. They might seem great in California, especially as a second car, but they are still a long long way off from replicating how many non-rich people use their vehicles.

We don't all live in SF. Personally, I'd need a stable 1000km/day range capacity, in winter/-30, in mountains, pulling several hundred pounds of people/stuff, before I'd even consider electric for my one and only car. Price is beside the point. I'm starting to think that zero net emission tech (diesel from air etc) might catch up before all-electric becomes the widespread standard.

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I drove 1000km in my Tesla in one day last week in Europe.

It took approximately 12 hours in total with approx 1.5-2 hours of charging time.

"8 hours of battery logistics" is something you've just made up.

It's more like you're in range of a rapid charger and it's a non issue, or you're not in which case you cannot do more than a full charge in a day (a European 230V outlet takes more than a day for a full charge, American 110V is slower).

Granted it won't do that in winter in the mountains whilst pulling several hundreds pounds worth of stuff. That's something that, like, 0.5% of car owners actually do. The emissions from that sort of activity are probably less important than stuff like tractors.

Good for you. They work well where there are chargers to be had, but the three EV trips I've taken over a few 100km all resulted in silly side trips to find charging stations, which were often closed or the wrong type for the vehicle we had. Those side trips meant more time charging and less time getting to where we wanted to go. Net result = 50% of the drive time was wasted as we dealt with finding charge. It was a laughable situation while on vacation, but totally unacceptable when work is on the line.

And not everyone can afford a tesla. They are still luxury vehicles.

I agree with you that pretty much every other electric car is a waste of time. In every sense.

The same for chargers below 22kW. Only for overnight or opportunistic use.

I hope that in 10 or so years there's the equivalent of a Civic or Corolla that just keeps on going - new cars are luxury in general.

You must be living under a rock. A Long Range Tesla Model 3 can easily do 1000km/day range using a supercharger and can now charge 75 miles in 5 minutes or up to 1,000 miles per hour (https://www.tesla.com/blog/introducing-v3-supercharging).

EVs are being widely adopted in Europe, with Norway (harsh winters) taking the lead. I don't get the whole "EVs are only suitable in California" narrative.

https://cleantechnica.com/files/2019/07/Europe-EV-Sales-Janu...

I live near Boise Idaho (also harsh winters) and I see 2-4 Teslas in my commute and I only drive to the office 3 times a week.

Around June of last year, we bought a used Model S and eventually replaced my wife's SUV with a used Model X. So far, we do not foresee going back to ICE cars. I haven't been into a gas station in forever.

>> 1000km/day range using a supercharger.

They can do that today. I;m driving a car from 2010. How are the 10+yo teslas doing? And when I say 1000km/day I mean 1000km in perhaps eight hours of driving, not eight hours of driving plus another eight hours of battery logistics.

>> and I only drive to the office 3 times a week.

So you have a part-time job in an office? That's part of the California narrative. You aren't a forestry worker. You aren't a local equipment rep. You aren't a tradesperson. You are someone with a relatively short and stable commute to a fixed location around which you can plan the battery recharge cycles. That is a luxury many people cannot afford.

>> and I see 2-4 Teslas in my commute ...

So they are still the freak/edge cases then. I saw at least a few hundred vehicles on the highway over the weekend (BC, Canada, proper mountains, sometimes 200+km between gas stations) not one seemed electric, certainly none were teslas. Lots of teslas in Vancouver, but I don't live in Vancouver.

At some point in history, there was only one gas station in the world. It takes time to build infrastructure. People like you seem to miss that. My Tesla can go 300 miles and charge most of that in about 15 minutes. Plug it in, walk into the gas station to take a piss and buy a snack and walk out. Done. I did that a month ago when I drove to vegas. It's not perfect, but it's incredible.

There's a second thing that most people with gas cars don't realize. EVs do REALLY well in traffic. The slower the better. Gas cars continue to burn fuel while idling. When I'm in traffic, my 300 mile tesla goes to 500+ mile range because moving an EV at 5-10mph is optimal conditions.

> People like you seem to miss that.

Unnecessarily rude, and clearly untrue considering the poster displayed an excellent understanding of the logistics of the situation. I don't think he or anyone else is opposed to the infrastructure catching up, but he's alive and working today and needs solutions that work right now.

Yeah, it was a bit rude. Thanks for calling me out. It's just annoying to hear the same complaints over and over when things are improving so much. 10 years ago what we have now was futuristic and a joke.

I have a friend who is a real estate agent that drive up to 350 miles (563km) a day. He has zero issues. He does not have to "plan" to recharge since the car's nav system does it for him.

>> I mean 1000km in perhaps eight hours of driving, not eight hours of driving plus another eight hours of battery logistics.

You are grossly underestimating the current state EV charging (you seem to be just a tad ignorant on the subject). A typical charging session on a Tesla supercharger is only 10-20 minutes.

At most, a 1017+ km road-trip would only add 40-60 minutes of combined supercharging (3 stops https://abetterrouteplanner.com/?plan_uuid=1366ac4f-d815-4e9...). I know because myself and many others have done it.

>> I saw at least a few hundred vehicles on the highway over the weekend (BC, Canada, proper mountains, sometimes 200+km between gas stations) not one seemed electric, certainly none were teslas

I can't tell if your being serious or not. ICE cars have like a 100+ year head-start, not to mention the infrastructure. Of course that would be the case, but not for long...

I'm ignorant? Do you know how many supercharging stations there are in my area?

Google "Tesla Chargers BC". The closest one to me now is literally hundreds of kilometers away. There are places near me, places that I sometimes work, that are literally a thousand kilometers from a tesla supercharger. Please do not assume that everyone lives in teslaland.

> EVs are being widely adopted in Europe

Indeed, just came back from a two-week vacation in Northern Germany, had to drive there from the South.

Didn't drive EV, but still couldn't help but notice that at every rest stop we made at a bigger Autobahnrasttätte there was either a Tesla supercharger station or some other brand EV charger. Could probably have made the same 600 km trip with an EV.

Tesla's have also become quite a common sight on German autobahnen, don't really notice the other brand EV's because I'm not much of a car guy.

I'd say the breakeven point for electric vehicles has already come. Electric cars have yet to hit this breakeven point, but waves of people have modeswitched to eBikes and electric scooters to get out of snarled traffic, shorten their commutes and lower their cost of transport

> towing capacity

what? Electric vehicles are vastly superior in towing capacity. The Model X from tesla can TOW a boeing jet -- 230,000 pounds. Now that has some tradeoffs for range, i believe. but in terms of actual towing capacity, it's leaps and bounds ahead of any other vehicle capable of towing. if you'd said 'towing range', i might be willing to accept that.

range itself is also just not really a concern any more. 300+ miles of range on a single charge is more than enough for the vast majority of drivers.

winter performance is possibly somethign to worry about, but when you can charge overnight at your home, you can still leave every morning with a 'full tank', so it's also just not really a concern any more.

Towing capacity isn't same as being able to pull heavy things. Pulling has to be matched with the corresponding braking power, which with regenerative braking means a massively over-spec regenerative system. Or you give up on regenerative braking and just install bigger disks, hammering range. That tesla can move an airbus along a runway (so can any honda civic btw) but try moving that aircraft down a hill at speed ... heading towards a sharp turn ... beside a cliff .. over a river... and maybe there is some ice.

Trains have been using regenerative braking to stop massive multi-ton loads for decades. I don't think this is a real issue.

What?

The towing capacity of a Model X is around 5k pounds. It's illegal to tow more the door sticker says on public roads in the US. For comparison, depending on what kind of Ford F-150 you get, you can tow from 5k to 8k pounds. According to some [1], you're also looking at a 45-60% decrease in range if you tow something like a camper.

[1] https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1122487_towing-a-camper...

I live in New England and take my Model 3 on long ski trips all the time.

Remember, an electric motor has much more torque than a gas motor. The only obstacle is battery cost.

BTW, go look up Ford's video of the F150 conversion to EV that they did. It towed a crazy amount of weight.

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