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Comment by tcbawo | Hacker News Reader

Be careful about doing side projects on work time or with company resources. Some vindictive employers may use this against you.

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Comments from the author on the subject: https://imgur.com/gallery/CVq5bO8/comment/1698922551

> I am careful. I worked with my company's IP department to get a clear. I had to sit with a company lawyer to explain my video game.

> Also they are COMPLETELY different industries. So they didn't care. It was the weirdest meeting that laywer had ever had at my company.

Great to hear he did his homework!

Last I looked into this, AIUI, the default in the US is "everything the employee does the employee owns" (damn you wedding photographers!).

So naturally, virtually every tech company contract will have a "work for hire" clause which says "never mind that, everything the employee does the company owns (on or off the clock, in the shower, whatever, it's all ours)".

California adds an extra exception, which is "whatever the employee does (on their own time and equipment) that is 'unrelated to the company's business' is still the employee's." While that may safeguard my oil painting hobby, I'd always be nervous about any programming (game or otherwise) if I work for a tech company...

My first thoughts exactly. You've provided them with written and photo evidence of doing work for another company (your new venture) while being paid by them. IANAL, but I would be worried about IP claims for anything you built. Next time CYA

> For nearly 2 years I spent every night after work coding and designing it.

> I would sketch out game ideas and maps while pretending to take notes in the endless deluge of meetings... stand-ups... backlog grooming... weekly-syncs... retrospectives... and project kickoffs...

"I am careful. I worked with my company's IP department to get a clear. I had to sit with a company lawyer to explain my video game. Also they are COMPLETELY different industries. So they didn't care. It was the weirdest meeting that laywer had ever had at my company."

--zukalous (the guy in question)

Those two blocks of statements are independent (doing a side project in your free time vs doing some of the work during working time).

Just reporting what I found, I think the guy is on thin ice. If the company treats him well though, he will be fine.

If he sat down with the lawyers and discussed the IP, he's a step ahead of the guy working on a game project, and not having consulted the legal aspects.

"Thin ice"? I doubt it. As long as this has nothing to do with his employers business, he's probably fine. Remember even if he's technically in "violation", the company has to care enough to go after him. Most of the time it won't be worth it.

It will matter when it matters. If he stumbles into making the next Minecraft, you better believe his former company will unleash the lawyers to at least get a cut or own the IP outright. If he ever seeks outside funding, investors will dig into IP ownership during due diligence and ask “when, precisely, did you start working on this?”

Every large tech company I worked for has been crystal clear during orientation: they own everything I do... on my own time or on theirs, using my own equipment or theirs. There was no ambiguity. Maybe his former employee is more chill. Maybe they won’t go after him. Maybe it won’t be worth it. That’s a lot of maybes to hang your livelihood off of.

If he stumbles on to the next Minecraft, he'll have enough cash to keep those lawyers busy for years while he still makes a nice living. Odds are he won't and nobody cares.

I was sued before over IP stuff, when I was a young kid and was working on a project. They only wanted to sue the large company with the big pockets, but I had to be named because I worked on the project. (freelance work)

Being sued really, really sucks, even if you have no real liability. Especially when you are young.

Interesting. Did you have to pay any part of the settlement, hire a lawyer, or what?

I settled for a pittance (a lot for a kid, but nothing for the lawsuit) and then they continued after the big player. So, just being in association with a larger player can be dangerous if you aren't protected well. (my lesson learned)

If the full-time indie game programming career doesn't work out, remember to clear this blog post before going job hunting again...

Doesn't matter if one does it on their own time and on their own equipment. It entirely* depends on any agreements one has with their employer. Moonlighting and intellectual property can get very sticky very quickly.

*modulo applicable laws in your part of the world

Previously: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2208056

The creator of this cleared it with his old employer at least. [0]. It's a good advice in general though.

[0] https://imgur.com/gallery/CVq5bO8/comment/1698923539

Though my employer doesn't care, but I once accidentally used my employers file header on my files instead of my own file header. My employer then suspected I placed intellectual property online. That was a fun conversation but my manager shielded me from me fortunately and at the end it worked out fine. It was a fun exercise using git rebase though. The most ironic part is that I actually use well working ideas I tried in my own code in the code I write for a living.

Amazon, in particular, has policies that restrict making games above and beyond their existing side project policies.

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