I quit my job today to make video games full time | Hacker News Reader

I quit my job today to make video games full time

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295 pointswyldfire73 comments

> FTA: "I have sketched game ideas since I could draw a straight line. This is from my childhood sketchbook."

Sounds like he's doing what must be done. Very excited for the author. We could debate professional opportunity costs or net worth deltas resulting from his decision, but it sounds like he was dying a little bit every day and always wondering "what if..." so this move is bold and beautiful and possibly necessary for mental health. GOOD LUCK, Chris Zukowski!

Hey thanks for finding my post. I have always thought I wasn’t cool enough for hacker news. AMA. To answer a couple questions 1) Before I joined any company I always had my personal lawyer review the contract to make sure it allowed me to make my own games on my own equipment. Wouldn’t work for a place that didn’t. 2) I am aware of the opportunity cost of having no to little salary for a few years. But I factored personal satisfaction and FOMO into what the actual cost was. Plus you gotta live a little.

I didn't know what FOMO is:

FOMO = Fear of Missing Out.

Good luck zukalous !

Congratulations. You are awesome.

I wish I had done the same years ago when the games industry was less saturated. And I was younger.

Kudos for living the dream.

Good for him, I hope he finds happiness. BUT...

My ex worked for [MAJOR VIDEO GAME PUBLISHER] and if he gets a job like that: say goodbye to your friends, family, nights and weekends.

I had dinner with my ex yesterday -- even tho [MAJOR VIDEO GAME] has been released for a while now there's DLCs coming out before the holidays and it's crunch AGAIN...my ex is working 6-7 days a week, 10am-10pm. The co has offices in several timezones so work is always flooding in, 24 hours a day.

I don't want to discourage anyone from following their dreams, and maybe indie vg publishing is a different beast, but I feel like this post potentially under-represents how crushing working in vg publishing can be.

Never want to work for a big publisher. I am trying to go the self published small label route. I basically see myself as a pulp paperback writer but with digital instead of words and pulp.

There is always that one that spews negativity. Always. And always an employee.

That one is usually right, though.

The video games industry is known for being a ruthless meat-grinder of human beings and human potential. The indie market is known for being a black hole where even good, well advertised projects vanish into without making a dime, never to be seen.

For workers, yes, and that is quite expected. A company is profitable for as long as it makes games that go viral. And interest in those games fades in time, so it’s quite expected. As indie tho i know plenty of success stories out there to think otherwise.

>As indie tho i know plenty of success stories out there to think otherwise.

Survivor bias. For every success there are many hundreds or thousands of failures, not all of which are necessarily of poor quality.

yeah best not to do anything because some fail. non-survivors bias.

This is so cool man! Glad you know what you value in life, as so many don't.

I left the FAANG I was working for about a month ago on my own terms, it felt weird at the time to start burning through savings to sharpen up on my own work but boy was it worth it. Not to mention the fact that last week my team was cleared out and basically ruined by a legal battle they brought on themselves (it even ended up being covered in WSJ).

Knowing what you value in life is priceless, life is simply too short to be working on things you don't at least find interesting.

> Glad you know what you value in life

Just to make it clear I am the submitter but I am not Chris Zukowski / zukalous. Title was preserved per the rules.

I used to program video games for a living. It's not all unicorns and sunshine. Just because the cubicles have cool drawings of video game characters all over them and you have an Xbox in the lounge doesn't mean that work is going to be more satisfying. In video games hours are longer and wages are lower because so many people want to live the dream.

I make approximately 4 times more money in cash at my new career in a startup. And that doesn't count equity. The place I work is doing well so my equity is worth significantly more than that (but it was a lottery ticket so just consider the cash component). On top of that, the product I work on improves the lives of people more tangibly than entertainment does.

I still love video games and hang out with my friends from that industry ... but all the ones with families are trying to get out of the industry just like I did.

It's a shit career unless you are at one of the top companies like Blizzard, Riot, etc.

This is the same game from the speedrunner post awhile back: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20328266

Hey you remember me. Sorry I wasn’t here on HN back when that went viral.

I was comming in here initially to be like.... "Wait have a plan!!! reaches out with hand to pull you back from jumping off a cliff"

Then I realized this dude is the maker of "1 screen platformer" he's gonna do just fine

If anyone has a link to his post about what happened when speed runners found his game its quite excellent and worth reading

Here it is: https://imgur.com/gallery/OUtDA5J

Thanks for your vote of confidence. It is still a risk but I wanted to do one of these “I quit my job” posts that wasn’t like “now all I have to do is learn how to program and I can make my open world mmo life simulator.” I have been very meticulous in my planning but still aware that this is a risk.

No risk, no gain.

Having meticulous plans and preparedness means you're already ahead of they pack!

No worries man I signed up for the sketchy mail chimp list I’m pumped to see where this goes

these are fair comments but you also have to be careful not to come off as “I don’t know if I’m going to make it I only ever self published this one book maybe you’ve heard of it ‘the martian’ “ this phenomenon can swing both ways

> I would sketch out game ideas and maps while pretending to take notes in the endless deluge of meetings...

You're my hero <3

Haha.

I for one can really identify with the comment the author made about the "grey" in cubicles. My work used to have exactly those cubes and after a while it almost felt like everything looked grey and walking outside where there was color was so refreshing. It was like the difference between the Moon and Earth.

In fact I wrote a poem on my blog about this very experience of being in a cube: http://www.actinginbalance.com/square/

Now, they replaced our cubes with open-office. Actually, it is less grey but still does feel very limiting, we have a lot less space, and it is noisy.

His blog

https://www.gamasutra.com/blogs/ChrisZukowski/842841/

XBLIG shoutout! Congrats and best of luck on your new venture.

Did you make any games for it? I still talk to many of the developers in that community.

I was an XNA MVP ... worked on a bunch of community content/articles. Was working on a game towards the end, but then the windows phone era of XNA came in and diverted my attentions, and by the time I'd made more progress on my game the community was winding down :(

Still want to revisit that game idea ... someday

As an aspiring entrepreneur, I have also small side projects which are waiting to be discovered or better to put it trying to see what's worth before I leave my job.

I think you did well about decision time if you have some responsibilities as I do. It's better to wait for a good time.

I consider your story is a success even from the beginning because of your attitude towards accountability and desire to make more games.

I have always loved video games but discouraged by the lack of work balance in that sector.

So if I ever work on a video game on my own terms, it would probably be small.

Are there are any resources for which one can accomplish a small game in a reasonable amount of time(let's say 6 months)?

That's not going to be an easy life, but it's not going to be boring either.

Be careful about doing side projects on work time or with company resources. Some vindictive employers may use this against you.

My first thoughts exactly. You've provided them with written and photo evidence of doing work for another company (your new venture) while being paid by them. IANAL, but I would be worried about IP claims for anything you built. Next time CYA

> For nearly 2 years I spent every night after work coding and designing it.

> I would sketch out game ideas and maps while pretending to take notes in the endless deluge of meetings... stand-ups... backlog grooming... weekly-syncs... retrospectives... and project kickoffs...

"I am careful. I worked with my company's IP department to get a clear. I had to sit with a company lawyer to explain my video game. Also they are COMPLETELY different industries. So they didn't care. It was the weirdest meeting that laywer had ever had at my company."

--zukalous (the guy in question)

Those two blocks of statements are independent (doing a side project in your free time vs doing some of the work during working time).

Just reporting what I found, I think the guy is on thin ice. If the company treats him well though, he will be fine.

If he sat down with the lawyers and discussed the IP, he's a step ahead of the guy working on a game project, and not having consulted the legal aspects.

"Thin ice"? I doubt it. As long as this has nothing to do with his employers business, he's probably fine. Remember even if he's technically in "violation", the company has to care enough to go after him. Most of the time it won't be worth it.

It will matter when it matters. If he stumbles into making the next Minecraft, you better believe his former company will unleash the lawyers to at least get a cut or own the IP outright. If he ever seeks outside funding, investors will dig into IP ownership during due diligence and ask “when, precisely, did you start working on this?”

Every large tech company I worked for has been crystal clear during orientation: they own everything I do... on my own time or on theirs, using my own equipment or theirs. There was no ambiguity. Maybe his former employee is more chill. Maybe they won’t go after him. Maybe it won’t be worth it. That’s a lot of maybes to hang your livelihood off of.

If he stumbles on to the next Minecraft, he'll have enough cash to keep those lawyers busy for years while he still makes a nice living. Odds are he won't and nobody cares.

I was sued before over IP stuff, when I was a young kid and was working on a project. They only wanted to sue the large company with the big pockets, but I had to be named because I worked on the project. (freelance work)

Being sued really, really sucks, even if you have no real liability. Especially when you are young.

Interesting. Did you have to pay any part of the settlement, hire a lawyer, or what?

I settled for a pittance (a lot for a kid, but nothing for the lawsuit) and then they continued after the big player. So, just being in association with a larger player can be dangerous if you aren't protected well. (my lesson learned)

If the full-time indie game programming career doesn't work out, remember to clear this blog post before going job hunting again...

Doesn't matter if one does it on their own time and on their own equipment. It entirely* depends on any agreements one has with their employer. Moonlighting and intellectual property can get very sticky very quickly.

*modulo applicable laws in your part of the world

Previously: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2208056

Comments from the author on the subject: https://imgur.com/gallery/CVq5bO8/comment/1698922551

> I am careful. I worked with my company's IP department to get a clear. I had to sit with a company lawyer to explain my video game.

> Also they are COMPLETELY different industries. So they didn't care. It was the weirdest meeting that laywer had ever had at my company.

Great to hear he did his homework!

Last I looked into this, AIUI, the default in the US is "everything the employee does the employee owns" (damn you wedding photographers!).

So naturally, virtually every tech company contract will have a "work for hire" clause which says "never mind that, everything the employee does the company owns (on or off the clock, in the shower, whatever, it's all ours)".

California adds an extra exception, which is "whatever the employee does (on their own time and equipment) that is 'unrelated to the company's business' is still the employee's." While that may safeguard my oil painting hobby, I'd always be nervous about any programming (game or otherwise) if I work for a tech company...

The creator of this cleared it with his old employer at least. [0]. It's a good advice in general though.

[0] https://imgur.com/gallery/CVq5bO8/comment/1698923539

Amazon, in particular, has policies that restrict making games above and beyond their existing side project policies.

Though my employer doesn't care, but I once accidentally used my employers file header on my files instead of my own file header. My employer then suspected I placed intellectual property online. That was a fun conversation but my manager shielded me from me fortunately and at the end it worked out fine. It was a fun exercise using git rebase though. The most ironic part is that I actually use well working ideas I tried in my own code in the code I write for a living.

Good luck, so many of us have tried and failed, or punted it off for another try in the future again. I wish you all the very best success.

Let's say I wanted to do the same (2D style game). Any recommendations on a tech-stack? Unity?

Godot please

I wish this person the best of luck. I am typing from my dank cubicle.

Gaming industry is one of the highly demanded industry in 21st century. best of luck on your new project

You left a job that gave you a cubicle? Man, I'd kill for a job that gave me a damned cubicle instead of a cacophonous open office... but sadly there are none left except for the one you just gave up.

I work in an office (it's around 8x15', shared w/one other dev). I realize that my position is very atypical, but certainly some jobs w/cubes likely exist.

- A regular job with presumably a decent pay (he was able to save enough to become freelancer indie game developer for several years).

- A full private desk.

It is funny how someones prison can be someone else palace.

Best of luck on your game development career.

It seems he was destined for something greater.

Hallway and cubicle just make me think that probably he works for an established defence company.

Absolutely. The building reminded me of my time at Lockheed Martin.

It also looks like some of the hallways at MIT, and I suppose one is less likely to get in trouble for photographing there.

Sadly I have to agree. In the age of open offices where free-range chickens have more space than us, that bit of privacy goes a long way.

I just want a stable, sustainable job.

It's interesting to see people pining for cubicles. It feels like yesterday when cubicles were looked at as the ultimate symbol of corporate dullness and soul-suckery.

If only we knew how much worse it could get.

That low-wall cube with the open end is still nicer than almost all employer-provided workspaces I've seen recently.

(And, speaking as something of an expert on cubicle fine living, I instantly see, in that photo, a dozen potential aesthetic and ergonomic improvements, which would make it even better.)

I've worked in an open office plan in various different offices and I vastly prefer it. I value being able to wave at my colleague to ask them a question. I value people not feeling interruptive when they approach me at my desk. I value the transparency of it all. We would even shuffle the desks (using a random algorithm) every quarter so people could have new neighbors (this was my favorite part, although I still consider myself an introvert). I'd rather be exposed at my desk than isolated in a tiny cube any day.

(This is not sarcasm, I've worked in these spaces for 3 years and I enjoy discussion about open office spaces.)

TL;DR: mostly consult on shovels, but do some gold prospecting on the side.

That's gold, right there.

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