That said I still wonder if they're holding back here to not cannibalize other lines. The 0-60 in the 3.5s range is over a full second off Tesla's best and for a performance brand seems like you want to be more in line with Tesla.
The Model3 performance consistency is better than the model s because they improved the cooling system but performance drops off quickly after a couple of runs.
I expect the Porsche to deliver consistent performance because that’s what they’ve been talking about for the last 3 years. Specifically, the referred to “ludicrous mode” as a party trick.
For example, 105F/40C air temps on a concrete surface (low-friction) with some amount of sand. Or 15F/-10C on a concrete surface.
And you can do that back-to-back-to-back-to-back-to-back-to-back... for an hour (with say 50 standing starts), non-stop. You'll see little variation in the result, and the car won't throw up its hands and say the party's over until it takes a rest.
That's a a big difference from the Model S which doesn't allow launch control unless the batteries are in a specific temperature window (which is about 20C wide), in which it must prep (warm up or cool down) before it's ready go, or to go again. A prep that is usually measured in minutes, unless you happened to already be in that window.
The Model 3s thermal management and cooling system is a huge step up from the Model S and Y, but Porsche (especially as you step further up a model line into the high end stuff) is probably THE brand known to go out on a track and stay out there longer than nearly any other brand before it needs to come in and cool down a bit. They're rather notorious for still under engineering and overbuilding their powertrains and braking systems, and a lot of tech trickling down from their motorsport efforts.
not without the mods https://www.sharkwerks.com/tech-articles/the-gt1-coolant-pip... note those are all performance models intended for racing/track day use, shipped with factory deficiency. Race tracks actually have a special rule for Porsche and will turn you back/fine you heavily if you bring unmodified car and break down.
There was even NHTSA investigation, but Porsche weaseled out claiming this defect doesnt manifest during "normal" aka road use and even if it did coolant lines are behind rear wheels so catastrophic failure wont influence stopping ability .... https://www.nhtsa.gov/vehicle/2007/PORSCHE/911/2%252520DR/RW... "31 Affected Products"
Funnily enough Panameras and Cayennes have same glued lines, directly above front wheels, and Porsche will happily fix this for you at $2000 a pop, again optionally because car not intended for track use.
Funny you say that, Road & Track did exactly that in 2014 with a Porsche 911 Turbo[1] and they were able to do 61 back-to-back launches.
Otherwise very cool that Porsche has achieved this!
All the stories about the S "overheating" seem to be talking about the older model or this article [1] about how a heavily modified S over heated at a race track. Porsche has to emphasize reputability because it's all they got. I mean they designed an electric sports car that is getting beat by Tesla's family sedan.
There is also the issue of how long the car can maintain it's top speed w/o overheating but I'm not sure Porsche is making any claims about that here and that's an issue with any car gas or electric.
[0] https://www.roadandtrack.com/new-cars/car-technology/videos/...
[1] https://en.cartests.net/2018/07/05/racing-tesla-p100dl-is-gr...
Look at it this way. A full battery with the highest possible voltage can deliver its highest possible amperage. Once the state of charge has dropped just a bit, and therefore pack voltage drops just a bit, the theoretical amperage that pack can deliver drops.
A P100D does it's crazy 2.4s run on a 100% SoC battery. Let the battery cool and try it again, and you'll get your 2.5s run. Let the battery cool and try it again, and you'll get your 2.6s run. Etc. etc.
IN OTHER WORDS... the Tesla motors and traction control are able to take advantage of everything the battery pack can possibly deliver. So as the pack voltage degrades, so does performance.
Since the Taycan can deliver max performance runs on a 90% SoC battery the same it can on a 100% SoC battery... that means that the motors and traction control can not take full advantage of everything the battery pack can deliver.
OR, it means Porsche literally is limiting the acceleration performance of the car in software.
Either way, Tesla wins.
https://www.thedrive.com/news/5207/this-video-reminds-us-tha...
https://jalopnik.com/heres-what-a-tesla-model-s-can-do-aroun...
Here's a Model S losing to a Nissan Leaf over 14 laps:
https://insideevs.com/news/359903/video-nissan-leaf-beats-te...
Porsche doesn't want to be in line with that.
Tesla's ludicrous launch is a party trick. It produces a number to prop up a marketing blurb. "Fastest production car ever!" Tesla has been doing the same sort of thing with "Safest car ever!" to the point that NHTSA recently sent Tesla a cease-and-desist letter over misleading statements about the Model 3′s safety rating.
The devil really is in the details though. A properly engineered drivetrain will be able to sustain its launches over several back-to-back activations. This is precisely what the Porsche team has accomplished. The machines they ship will hit a number, and then they will hit that number again, and again, and again, and again. And that won't fade. It won't destroy the battery. It won't get nerfed with an over-the-air update a couple of months after hitting the market.
This is what automotive engineering excellence looks like, and it's great to finally see it in an electric vehicle.
I live in a rural exurb area. Every spring-fall weekend features parades of supercars of the various supercar clubs. Million dollar plus vehicles. All driving at 60km, driving no differently than the Corolla that accidentally turned into their procession. Because it's all party tricks. These people aren't racing these cars, but are just sitting on potential.
As an aside, I don't remember Tesla ever claiming that their vehicles were the "fastest production car", which is normally a measure of top speed. The Tesla has a positively mediocre top speed compared to supercars, and on any longer run will be demolished. It isn't built for repeat launches, or a quick lap at Nürburgring.
But if you want a very confident merge on the highway, pass on the single lane highway, etc, it can confidently provide what you need.
As an aside, all lithium ion batteries are degraded by high drain (similarly they are degraded by fast charging). Porsche is seeming buying the exact same technology in LG packs. They have identical issues that Tesla does. If you launch a P100d without ludicrous mode you'll do 0-60 in 2.9 seconds.
P100D is 100kw/h battery, which should be able to put out at least 1500 hp continuously.
The problem is 100% Tesla's cooling system not being powerful enough.
Here is Tesla making that claim about the Model S. They say, "New Tesla Model S Now the Quickest Production Car in the World": https://www.tesla.com/blog/new-tesla-model-s-now-quickest-pr...
Here is Tesla making an even bigger claim about the future Tesla Roadster with no "production" qualifier. It's claimed to be "the quickest car in the world", which is plainly false: https://www.tesla.com/roadster
Quick in the automotive industry generally refers to acceleration. Fast refers to top speed. Tesla made a big deal about acceleration, but as I said they cede that there are much faster cars out there.
The Tesla is very quick at accelerating. This is indisputable. Tesla made a benefit of electric motors, properly implemented, to push a high end sedan. Eh. That this whole discussion is full of people moaning that Porsche, years and years later, might make a two seater that in some situations is more performant is quite incredible really, and is quite the accolades for Tesla.
Regarding the roadster...how is that plainly false? 2.1 seconds might very much qualify it as the quickest car in the world, production or not. At least for things that qualify as "cars".
Consumers who would, deserve what they get.
Don't make excuses for Tesla's overblown marketing. Playing semantics is the lowest form of argument.
> Regarding the roadster...how is that plainly false?
Because non-production cars outperform it.
Which non-production car outperforms the Roadster's claimed 2.1 second 0-60? Beyond those that don't really qualify as cars (e.g. with jet engines, etc), I'm not aware of any.
No, I'm just objective and realistic.
> Which non-production car outperforms the Roadster's claimed 2.1 second 0-60?
The AMS Performance Alpha Omega Nissan R35 GT-R does 0 to 60 in 1.72 seconds: https://www.motor1.com/news/44845/ams-performance-alpha-omeg...
The Red Victor 2 does 0 to 60 in 0.9 seconds: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Victor_2
Red Victor 3: http://cars.barcroft.tv/britains-fastest-street-legal-car-an...
The Grimsel from AMZ: https://www.theverge.com/2016/6/22/12004422/fastest-accelera...
Global Rallycross cars: https://www.roadandtrack.com/motorsports/videos/a31137/how-g...
V8 era Formula 1 cars: https://jalopnik.com/this-chart-explains-why-formula-one-car...
> Beyond those that don't really qualify as cars (e.g. with jet engines, etc)
The Tesla Roadster is supposed to come with rocket thrusters:
https://electrek.co/2019/07/19/tesla-roadster-hover-test-spa...
So does the Roadster qualify as a car?
As someone who actually GOES to racetracks, last time I was at Laguna, we had 4 Model 3s and 2 S. Absolutely the S has overheating issues. They're also very old.
I’ve been looking forward to the Germans entering the electric car market for real. Should force everyone to step up their game.
So was I. The Audi e-tron was supposed to be that, but I've been massively disillusioned by it's horrible efficiency, high price and inability to produce in volume.
I was convinced my next car was going to be an Audi, but maybe a BMW. I had a string of VWs and loved German cars. Then my 2.0T blew up with the faulty timing chain (prior to the recall, but we it was obvious there was a systemic problem). VW didn't fix it.
I now drive a Tesla Model 3. Currently there is nothing else close on the market. The Germans definitely lost at least one sale to me.
Reviews have been generally excellent so far.
Mercedes is a fantastic brand. The interior is premium and luxurious. You don't have to worry about service, support or the company going bankrupt. And it overall is a really well designed car.
https://thedriven.io/wp-content/uploads/2019/07/VWmediaIDbuz...
All cars designed primarily for the highway rather than the track have issues with brake heating, transmission fluid heating, et cetera, and slow down over time. The Model S is extreme in that manner, but the Model 3 slowdowns are are far less extreme than the S's limp mode.
> NHTSA recently sent Tesla a cease-and-desist letter over misleading statements about the Model 3′s safety rating.
Having the NHTSA say "A lack of evidence proving you're not the safest isn't the same as saying you are the safest" isn't really bad news or bad publicity.
> The machines they ship will hit a number, and then they will hit that number again, and again, and again, and again. And that won't fade. It won't destroy the battery. It won't get nerfed with an over-the-air update a couple of months after hitting the market.
The big manufacturers have been promising "Tesla killers" for a decade now. They've continually disappointed. This is Porsche's first production BEV. There will be compromises, they will make mistakes. It still might be a Tesla killer, substantially better than the new Tesla Roadster coming next year but up until they're shipping in volume and have had some time to shake out both cars are brochure-ware.
I admire your optimism. I'll buy a 2020 roadster if it's anywhere close to what they describe and released any time soon; but I'm skeptical. (They also need to put a real steering wheel on it.) But I'm thinking it's not anywhere close to their top priority right now and that 2020 may end up being optimistic.
But if they get it out there, it's targeted right on top of the 911 Turbo. Same price, same 2+2 configuration, higher performance, similar utility. Will be interesting to see what happens here. Too bad Tesla is trying to go downmarket. If they were staying more up-market I'd feel more confidence in this car coming out on time.
This doesn't include trucks which are a large part of the market. Being designed to haul, everything is oversized.
Ten months ago, though it has been in the news again the last few days as the letter and response were just released. The blog post in question is still up, which means the NHTSA either backed off after Tesla's response or hasn't yet been able to get a court to take their side.
Just an anecdote..I bought an 8 foot door from Lowe's and it comfortably fits in my Model S by just folding the rear seats. Even the store attendants were amazed and took several pics while we were loading it (also fits in a Mode 3 btw).
A performance Model 3 is more suited for track purposes since it's a newer design.
Here it is being driven at the track by the legendary Randy Pobst:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aywleQX5lyA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zfWbdk28azQ
Even then, the Model 3 is based on a 2016 design, while the Taycan is still actively being developed.
So not really sure what argument you're trying to point out here.
Those first two articles are from 2016 and 2014 and the third one (written a few weeks ago) describes a contest between a 2014 Model S and a "New, modified" 2019 Leaf.
The first Google result I see for "Model 3 Performance Overheat" is this one - and it describes how the car did NOT overheat: https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-model-3-performance-autobahn...
That's the 2014/2015 models. Has anyone tested more recent ones?
What's the Model 3's best time?
Here's a video of a Model 3 doing around 9 minutes per lap without track mode and during Turistenfahrt at the Nürburgring : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F3IHb8RFV_g
Edited://
No.
However it is nice to see an EV with range at least in Tesla territory, granted it still is 2012 territory. I posted before, no premium brand EV should sell anything under 300 miles EPA; I use EPA as it is the one returning the lowest in use numbers which makes it a bit better bet when you try to figure out winter driving numbers too.
the real issue with EV adoption besides choice is if the average buyer has any real interest without incentives.
I do hope the Porsche entry forces Tesla to revamp the S and X interior, the real fix they need is to remove road noise, specifically tires, which is the only issue I have with my 3. (Test drove a S75 so maybe they are better now, no idea)
So you can pass cars that are driving too slow in the fastlane at highway speeds. 0-60 times are a general indication of the car's torque curve and power delivery. Depending on gearing, there's a pretty good chance a car with crazy-good acceleration will have no problems "bobbing and weaving" around some slowpoke in front of you without requiring hundreds of meters of space in the other lane to facilitate the overtake.
>>>Those kinds of g-forces are certainly not pleasant for passengers.
That entirely depends on the character/personality of your passengers. After a friend's wedding a few months ago I drove some of his relatives to the after-party. These guys were visiting from Hong Kong and don't own cars. Along the way I had an impromptu drag race with a random motorist and my passengers were ECSTATIC. "OMG this car is sooo awesome!!". Most of my friends are similar but they are predominantly car guys anyway. But I have another friend who is more of a "boulevard cruiser" type of guy who gets uncomfortable with aggressive driving. shrug
Reckless driving like this consistently kills innocent people and most drivers who do this eventually end up losing their license or ending up in jail.
Not sure it's the sort of target demographic car companies should be looking at.
How could you possibly know this? You have no idea how many people do it and never get caught.
> Reckless driving like this consistently kills innocent people
You know what else consistently kills people? Tesla's Autopilot. I bet Tesla isn't discouraging use of that expensive feature though. In fact they defend it ruthlessly in the media and in court, despite more and more evidence pointing towards it being more dangerous than manual driving. To be fair though, I'm unaware of it ever killing anyone outside of the vehicle, so I guess it's just people killing themselves which is very different from killing innocent bystanders.
Citation needed. I can't even recall the last time street racing in this part of Japan killed anyone, let alone anyone outside the vehicle itself. The combination of more stringent licensing requirements, bi-annual vehicle inspections, and overall cost all combine to keep most sports cars out of the hands of all but the most dedicated drivers. Fatal mistakes are rare here. Accidents are usually drifting-related on secluded mountain roads.
I don't think it will happen though. It would be tricky to get the right size/ weight that most people can carry without making it tedious (wouldn't be fun swapping 18650s around). Any larger and people would need hoists or jacks, then the is the issue of how to quickly & easily secure these large battery packs...
I do wish for a more reasonable EV marketing than the "guilt-free bigger better faster" that we currently see, but technological properties are not in favor of minimalistic EV. The efficiency penalty for overpowered ICE cars was much bigger than that of overpowered EV, but even they never stopped getting more overpowered each iteration.
PS: at least focusing on acceleration goes counter to "just strap on another ton of batteries" tactics. IMHO two tons of technology for transporting one or two persons on land is too much, even if the powersource was rainbows and butterflies.
The acceleration needed to get press coverage? Absolutely not.
The other qualities of a good EV? Absolutely yes.
Having driven a Tesla Model S for several years now, I have to say that it has the best low-speed handling of any car I've ever driven. You can control it's motion very precisely in the 0-5mph range (far better than any ICE I've ever driven), and "autopilot" can do most of the "bumper-to-bumper start-and-stop" grunt work for you. Of course none of this makes for a loud press release, so it rarely gets mentioned.
You're right, not quite so sexy for the ads, lol.
I agree, those things do make a difference. I drive a manual (stick) car with pretty rough low-speed handling. It is a bit unpleasant to drive in bad traffic.
I completely disagree. Quarter mile times with terminal speed over 100 is useless. 10/10 at the limit adhesion differences are useless. 0-60 is useful almost every time you get in the car.
Nicest part about an EV? You pretty much get to choose your lane if you are first at the stop light. No making loud engine noises. Just floor the accelerator and choose what lane you want. That's the most practice performance metric out there in daily driving.
Traditionally obtaining good acceleration has been incredibly difficult. Larger engines yield a heavier vehicle in a vicious cycle. Makers like Lamborghini would reduce their cars to just shells, use esoteric materials if it could shed tiny amounts of weight, and then would spend enormous engineering trying to obtain more power from smaller engines (not bigger engines, more powerful, lighter engines). To casually dismiss this is just entirely untrue.
Tesla made a big deal about acceleration because it comes essentially for free with electric engines that have incredible low end torque curves. They made a big, 5000lb, full featured, 5-seat sedan and they still could give it acceleration that blew away what million dollar supercars had been fighting to do for decades. And now we're all tut-tutting that Porsche might possibly make something that's kind of similarly capable in a car that will likely cost much more and seat two. Great.
However I have heard the Model 3 handles great, but still not quite as good as cars in the same price bracket. I'd take an M2 Competition over a Model 3 Performance based on what I've heard, but obviously until I drive both that's just conjecture.
What I can say for a fact - I genuinely preferred how my 94 Camry handled compared to the Model S. And I fucking hated that Camry.
Formula E, Goodwood, etc. are open to non-street legal cars - the designs are purpose-built for racing and Tesla doesn't have a factory race team.
Tesla seems to have played their cards very well.
Is that true? I would have thought that the most Tesla owners care about is how far they can project their image of wealth and sofistication
Unless you're getting the high end variants of the S and 3, it's not really projecting wealth and sophistication, but rather the opposite. I bought a Model 3 because it just makes more sense financially than say getting a BMW 3 series.
The Model 3 is an extraordinary car, but the most extraordinary thing about it is that it's available to anyone for <$50k.
Maybe you can use all that money you saved to buy some perspective.