Comment by bubblewrap | Hacker News Reader

Comment by bubblewrap | Hacker News Reader

Parent Full thread

Just for fun, going with the scenario. Why not?

Edit: rate limited by HN, so here is my reply to the question below:

Racist - seriously? So "momma" is not a word that is ever used? Is it a word from the AAVE - so why would it be mocking the AAVE?

I'm not a native speaker of English. But honestly, I don't care about that level of political correctness. I doubt that using "momma" is as big of a deal as you make it sound.

Edit 2: no being black doesn't imply speaking differently, but the scenario here was poor oppressed black girls obsessing over white dolls, with mothers who don't care to buy them black dolls. Also, just because I used "momma" doesn't imply all blacks only ever say "momma". What weird twisted logic is that? In the same vein, if I had used "mother", I wouldn't have denied black identity by claiming no black people ever say "momma". If you are offended by little things like that, then sure, your life will be difficult. Lighten up! (no pun intended - I mean the mood, not your skin color).

I am actually a bit offended by you being offended, by the way! Why do you think so badly of me, without even knowing me (interpreting my words in the worst way)? It seems you have a lot of bias against me.

In response to your second edit, I disagree with your claim that choosing to use the term “mother” vs “momma” is neutral or symmetric. When you choose to use the common term “mother,” it implies nothing in particular. Intentionally choosing to use the word “momma” on the other hand is not a neutral decision. You specifically chose to use it to refer to Black mothers. And your statement about “denying black identity” just reinforces the argument that you associate Black people with a certain manner of speech.

I have no bias against you. I’m just trying to explain to you why some people find your original statement offensive. Instead of defending it, just try to consider how it may make your audience feel in the future.

The example on Wiktionary given for momma is "My momma's so great: she bakes me cookies every week."

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/momma

As I said, I am not a native speaker, so I don't really know how momma is typically used (if at all). It was more of a spontaneous use on a whim. But I also haven't found any indication yet that it is a derogatory term.

Sorry I still think the "offense taken" is overblown. I am also not concerned about not offending anybody at all. Frankly I think many people who feel offended about certain things perhaps should just get over themselves. I mean in this case, is momma used in the real world? If so, then I think it should be OK to use it. I don't believe in censoring statements about the real world.

Thanks for trying to explain, though.

"Momma" is used much more frequently in AAVE than General American English. Your use of it in this context comes across as being mocking of black Americans. (Perhaps the missing bit of cultural context is that racists often use exaggerated AAVE to mock black Americans.)

I've never heard of AAVE before. Wikipedia claims it is "natively spoken, particularly in urban communities, by most working- and middle-class African Americans and some Black Canadians" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/African-American_Vernacular_En...

So if it is so commonly used, why on earth should it be offensive to refer to it? In what way would you consider my statement "mocking"? I don't think it is very relevant what racists commonly do. I don't feel obliged to obtain knowledge about the lifestyle of racists, and neither should anybody else.

Even more interesting in the context of the original complaint of there not being enough books with black heroes. So if a white writer would write such a book, they wouldn't be allowed to use the word "momma" or refer to anything that PoC might do that is different from white people? You are creating an impossible world.

> I don't think it is very relevant what racists commonly do.

In an English-based discussion entirely around issues of race the ways racists commonly use the English language is very relevant. Using the word "momma" by itself is not offensive however in this context it is slightly offensive because the way you used it is exactly how a racist would use it to mock a black person.

I don't think people here are even taking a lot of offense at your use of the word so much as your extreme defensiveness over your use of it. Please take this opportunity to reflect on why you chose to be so defensive instead of taking a mea culpa (and, if you are genuinely confused by why people are offended, asking for clarification).

> So if a white writer would write such a book, they wouldn't be allowed to use the word "momma" or refer to anything that PoC might do that is different from white people?

This is, in fact, a complicated question. Generally the way to avoid being offensive in that situation is to write your characters respectfully as human beings first and foremost, to study portrayals written by members of the group you are portraying to see how they portray themselves, and to ask members of the minority group you are portraying to review your work for any unintentional offensiveness before publication.

"the way you used it is exactly how a racist would use it to mock a black person."

I still don't see what exactly is so mocking about it. Yes, I was perhaps "conjuring up" a stereotypical scenario. So what? Clearly, the stereotype exists. Even if it doesn't reflect reality, imo it would still be valid to refer to the stereotype, as the stereotype exists and is part of reality. The much celebrated Toni Morrison book also conjures a stereotype, about a black girl obsessing to become white. Somehow that is good - why?

And again, no - nobody should be forced to spend time learning about the behavior of racists. Why should they? Life is too short to spend it studying nasty people. I reject this as an attempt to control other people's life, with the power of being a minority.

"Generally the way to avoid being offensive in that situation is to write your characters respectfully as human beings, and to ask members of the minority group you are portraying to review your work for any unintentional offensiveness before publication."

Nope, and that is also why I am so defensive. I value freedom of thought and freedom of art higher than people's choice of being offended.

Of course any writer is free to make the choice to try to offend as few people as possible. But writers should also be allowed to write what they think.

People will judge you by the verbal company you keep. Sometimes skinheads tragically ruin good bars if the owners/bartenders aren’t vigilant

I found it pretty offensive. Being Black does not imply speaking differently and your message seems to indicate that you think it does.

It comes across as racist and mocking of AAVE. Is that fun for you?

Reply on news.ycombinator.com