Comment by sago | Hacker News Reader

Comment by sago | Hacker News Reader

An excellent blog post. I found the experience of being a wheelchair user a little amusing.

It is very unusual for companies or organisations to deny being accessible. In much of the world accessibility is a legal requirement, but it is very rare that it is precisely defined. So it is a very different matter whether that accessibility is adequate.

If the author had been in a chair, they would likely have found that the ramps up to the dais are far too steep, and require them to be manhandled up in full view of everyone. Some ramps may have been temporary and split, preventing powered chairs from using them. Or the ramp might have been ostensibly owned, but misplaced when it comes to be needed. They may well have discovered that the only accessible bathroom is in the bowels of the building, frequently used for convenience by nondisabled people, require a key from reception, is used as a store room, or is part of a regular bathroom behind an inaccessible automatic closing door. Were gradients in the outdoor landscape too difficult? Could all the doors be opened while having hands on both wheels to move the chair? Were refreshments accessible? Were tables the right shape to get a wheelchair under them? What about a powered chair?

I completely agree and sympathise that the range of disabilities is much broader than physical disability. But I think we should be careful of assuming even physical disability has been cracked. I think it is essential that more people have experience of navigating space in wheelchairs. In my experience it is much much more difficult than I would ever have assumed.

>In much of the world accessibility is a legal requirement

This is very true for the USA, but not so much elsewhere. It's common in Europe for buildings to have no wheelchair access at all.

In Holland, it seems like a lot of effort is put into wheelchair access. At least for newer buildings (Post WW2) and public transportation. But I'm not physically disabled, so haven't actually experienced it fully.

I was surprised that in NYC not all stations and platform have wheelchair access.

That's something I've noticed living in a major Northern European Capital. As result, I don't interact with disabled people nearly as often as I used to in the USA.

It's a requirement for new buildings. It just happens that a lot of European buildings are very old and difficult to modify.

Much of this is thanks to the American with Disabilities Act (ADA) which will celebrate it's 30th anniversary next year. I can remember how much people despised that the government was forcing another regulation on the poor businesses and how the world was going to come crashing down as a result. But here we are with at least a mediocre of accessibility and much of it can be traced back to the ADA.

> But here we are with at least a mediocre of accessibility and much of it can be traced back to the ADA.

While the accessibility may be mediocre, we do have a modicum of it.

Going between Stockholm University and the Royal Institute of Technology the elevators were out for a few months straight.

Wheelchair users were suggested to go from nearby stations, which in the case of Stockholm Uni is 1.9 km with roller coaster like hills from the previous and even further with a wild downhill along the highway for the next one.

Yeah. That's a fair point. I did spend some time in a chair when I was much younger - so I have a vague memory of some of those issues.

Perhaps I should do it in a cheap chair... Could be interesting - but might be a bit socially weird.

My criticism was not intended to be overly negative, by the way. Thank you so much for writing this.

>Were tables the right shape to get a wheelchair under them? What about a powered chair?

I was unaware this was a problem. Could you elaborate more on accessibility of tables? Are there specific features/markings/certifications I should look for to ensure accessibility?

What country?

For maximum accessibility, a powered desk that raises or lowers is ideal to account for more situations.

I'm not aware of any markings or certifications. And ending the list that way, I wanted to suggest a whole hinterland of considerations, rather than elevate table choice particularly.

But with those caveats, there are three issues with tables I've faced as a wheelchair user. In order of being increasingly common:

1. Wheelchairs are wide. I can't get into tables with legs a small distance apart. And the table is useless if I am too far away from it or I am side on.

2. A powered wheelchair is particularly tall, so short tables cannot be accessed. There were some I couldn't access in a manual chair also, particularly those with lips around the top. Or bolts and hardware on the underside that are painful to whack knees into.

3. Tables with a single central base don't allow wheels to enter on the floor under the table.

My disabilities are acquired. So I largely ignored the issue when I was running my businesses. As such I don't know about formal best practices or certifications. Honestly my best advice would be to rent a wheelchair for an afternoon and try it.

>frequently used for convenience by nondisabled people

How does their use interfere with the disabled person's use?

It interferes in multiple ways.

First, it's more spacious so people will almost always choose it before any of the non accessible stalls, and people will use it when they need to go number 2 because it's more comfortable. When I want to use the only accessible stall on my floor, at work, I need to either wait between 15 to 30 minutes for people to finish doing their business or come back later (later it'll still be taken by someone else, it's practically always taken.)

Second, because so many people use it, it ends up being much more degraded than non-accessible stalls. It's always dirty, and often plugged. The seat is broken and detached from the toilet itself (extremely important criterion for someone who can only sit and can't hover).

It's not isolated to my workplace either, it's so common that peeing is pretty much my main worry when going anywhere (aside from not being able to enter at all).

I'm reminded of the movie Hidden Figures every time I discuss this topic, it's set in the 60s and there's a scene where a black woman has to walk an outrageous distance to go pee because there's no colored bathrooms at her work. She starts crying after being scolded for disappearing so long multiple times a day, and after she explains the situation her white manager breaks down the "whites-only" sign on their work bathroom with a baseball bat in a climactic feel-good moment. Around 2014, 54 years later, all the handicapped stalls at my work were condemned because of the degradation. I had to roll 500 meters every time I wanted to pee for four months, nobody gave a shit. I've never had a nice manager with a baseball bat stand up for me in such a way, but I've met plenty of people throughout my life who're content to argue that "it's fair that disabled people should wait like everybody else if all the other stalls are taken because it's really not a big deal."

I've assumed the etiquette is to only use the accessible stall if no others are available.

Nah, you can use it whenever, but don't take forever.

You should not use it at all.

If the ratio of disabled facilities to able-bodied facilities is n:1, then your wait time for an able-bodied facility is 1/n, but the disabled person will have to wait for 1 unit of time.

Add to that that disabled people more often have medical needs around toileting (pain, urgency, uncontrollability, catheters or ostomies full or failing), and that extra wait can turn into somebody's nightmare day. For the sake of fractionally less wait for you.

It's the same reason why you should not use disabled parking spaces, even when no other convenient parking space is available.

Interesting. About half the toilets in my office are accessible, and the existing men:toilets ratio is about 150:1, so really it's 300:1. I should file an OSHA complaint.

(This isn't a sweatshop, either, the lowest paid among them make at least $45/hour).

If there are so many accessible bathrooms that there is no way a disabled person could possibly wait, the concern is moot. Of course. A super common situation /s

>A super common situation /s

I don't understand the "/s." The public restrooms I encounter have either one or two stalls, and one of them is always accessible. Accessible toilets are never less than 50% of all toilets in the building. Occasionally there might be one wheelchair user in the building.

> Accessible toilets are never less than 50% of all toilets in the building.

Of hundreds of buildings I've been to, I have never seen a single place where that is even close to being true. Including hospitals. Do you mean accessible? With double drop handles, Wide enough to put a wheelchair next to the seat? Accessible handbasins (low, easy to reach the taps)?

I find it very hard to believe that more than 50% are.

Also, some people who are wheelchair users, who require an accessible wheelchair stall, experience severe autonomic dysreflexia if they are unable to empty their bladder and/or bowels right away!

Trust me, it is just about the worst feeling in the world: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autonomic_dysreflexia

There is nothing like the feeling of your head about to explode, plus the worst feeling of doom possible, plus your blood pressure surging, and seeing spots. Afterwards, even after you relieve yourself, you are completely washed out and feel terrible for the rest of the day. Like "I got run over by a truck terrible" (no exaggeration).

By the way, there are people who can walk who experience this too. So don't just assume that it is only wheelchair users who experience it.

Just know that restrooms/toilets/bathrooms, especially accessible stalls, need to be open to the public, not only for human dignity, but for the small subset of people who absolutely have to relieve themselves at any given moment. It is, no question, life threatening.

It is actually shocking that the general public does not realize this. The same goes with the fact that wheelchair and/or mobility device users definitely require disabled parking for safety reasons, as they can easily be in a driver's blind spot.

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