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Comment by edejong | Hacker News Reader

The problem with the mindfulness approach is that it only leads you knee-deep. Enough to enjoy the waves and the joy of water, but too little to start swimming.

For example, I can still see you are not accepting your past self for what it is ("I thought I was insightful and deep before") or how the world is ("would be a FAR better place").

You are on a path towards awakening. Some of us have come to understand that there are seven factors [1] to master, not one.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seven_Factors_of_Awakening

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I think this is actually the exact problem the article talks about.

It’s possible to engage with mindfulness practices without buying into the entire Buddhist belief system.

This comment reinforces the author’s (I believe mistaken) point, that mindfulness sneaks in a bunch of Buddhist ideology. In my experience, it’s been possible to benefit from the practices while deciding some of the more doctrinal Buddhist beliefs (like non-self / anatta) don’t resonate.

Well, the problem is rather simple. If you decide to only engage in mindfulness, you'll have a great time discovering things about yourself and your environment. You will feel better about yourself. That will work for a while and it might set you on a larger, longer path with more peril.

In (Mahayana) Buddhism you train more. Like the opposite: concentration. Think about the same topic for one hour, repeatedly. Who am I? Who do I think I am? What thoughts am I suppressing?

Fundamentally, it teaches you that all these things are like sliders on a big mixing console. Pushing one slider will bring the others down. Pushing mindfulness might reduce equanimity and concentration.

In the end, it is the art of letting go. If you want to hold on to something, you should be able to let it go.

But if you don’t have Buddhist beliefs then there is no problem.

> I think this is actually the exact problem the article talks about.

The article doesn't make it explicit, but I think that you have it backwards: the problem is that mindfulness is divorced from the Buddhist tradition. As an analogy, it's like the spread of corn as a staple without nixtamalization [1]. I.e. the surrounding context that Buddhism provides with other supporting and subsequent practices makes it more "stable".

[1] In the United States, European settlers did not always adopt the nixtamalization process, except in the case of hominy grits, though maize became a staple among the poor of the southern states. This led to endemic pellagra in poor populations throughout the southern US in the early 20th century https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nixtamalization

Now that Buddhists like you are coming in here and telling us to be more Buddhist and read and think Buddhist things, I think it's important to stress that anyone interested in mindfulness doesn't need to become a Buddhist.

In fact there is a clinical application of mindfulness which is called cognitive behavioral therapy, it is proven through research to have great benefits for a lot of people, it is secular, and unlike Buddhism, it has never been a justification for murder and ethnic cleansing.

We should strip away the religion and focus on the scientifically studied and observed benefits, in my opinion.

I've done mindfulness and am ongoing CBT therapy and saying they are related is kind of wrong.

Both:

1. Are a method that aim to reduce suffering

2. Focus on habits and

3. Observation of the current self

But they are really not the same, or related on a practical level.

CBT isn’t mindfulness. DBT is the one that incorporates mindfulness. CBT is specific analysis and can say it has mindfulness as part of it just as any introspection or analysis pertaining to your self does.

Mindfulness is practiced in any religion. Though, most churches will for political reasons push back anything bringing in too much mysticism and spirituality. That's why the content of many religious books outside of institutional restrictions are more or less interchangeable.

It was not my intent to convert anyone to Buddhism (in any of it’s hundreds of mostly peaceful substreams). I am merely pointing out that mindfulness requires a wider context.

Precisely, thank you for making this point

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