Now, granted, the current crop of engineers I work with are some of the most stereotypically nerdy folks I've ever encountered. Back in San Diego, the engineers I worked with were usually surfers, extreme skiers, advanced cyclists, or some other "alpha" pursuit. The "alpha" engineers in the valley that I've encountered so far... are generally pale, skinny, socially awkward and not very friendly.
(Edit: Quotes around 'alpha'. Added 'engineers' after second 'alpha'. I thought I edited out the second usage of 'alpha' because it's really all engineers, but keeping it because it still works.)
Well, bullying was a thing, and it wasn't the nerds bullying the jocks
Except for the ongoing war against boys?
I'm fully aware that girls has faced problems as well, probably more than men, but the solution to that shouldn't be to punish young boys today for the sins of their grandparents.
Edit: I'm serious. I'm as much against sexism as anyone, but IMO the solution isn't to make all boys behave more like girls but to make boys behave as better boys.
As for the theory about chemicals I think that can be a good explanation for parts of the problem.
One observation that strengthens this theory is that dogs are affected as well.
> a war against boys that doesn't exist
The war part is a way of speech, or hyperbole, I give you that.
But how about you explain:
- the majority of prison populations being men. Is society failing them like we say about every other group who is overrepresented in prisons or are men more evil? If men are more evil - explain why they are different from other groups overrepresented in prisons.
- why do boys on average score significantly better when tests are anonymous compared to when the tests are named and graded by their teacher?[0][1]
- Related to the first: Why are judges more lenient towards women? [2]
- etc
[0]: http://sciencenordic.com/why-boys-get-poor-grades
[1]: I'm well aware that the opposite happens as well. A good friend of me told me how he (who always got good grades) and a female student who always got average grades swapped their hand ins and found that the teacher had still graded his top notch and hers as average, so yes, this happens as well but seems to be less common at least around here.
[2]: https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/155708511143021...
There was also a time when I was a fat nerd, about 22 years ago when I emerged from college, and for a while would have made many assumptions about the intelligence of someone who was fit and especially someone who was 'buff'(can I use that word? does it make me sound like I 'bro'? I don't know...).
This is a lie and you know it. Everyone and I mean literally everyone cares about appearances. No matter how you slice it everyone has a style they are trying to project. This same goes for body shape.
If we had a pill that instantly -- without effort -- gave everyone a six pack and lean muscular body, everyone of your friends would be on it, because deep down they care.
Problem is one of discipline. It is not easy to wake up early and hit the gym or after hard day of working to do the same. It is not easy to not eat that doughnut (it is Sally's birthday after all and it would be rude not to take a free doughnut).
I am far from perfect, but I try my damnedest each and every day and I'm making progress and I've already noticed it affecting people around me, but I'm also fortunate that the team I work with is full of sport-y people, so at least I get to hang out with "my people", but I feel the difference when I interface with other teams.
> Everyone and I mean literally everyone cares about appearances. No matter how you slice it everyone has a style they are trying to project. This same goes for body shape.
Even those few people who are too lazy or apathetic to project an image on purpose have preferences about others' appearances. This is literally the reason why advertising uses professional models to sell products.
No. Why are you talking in absolutes after spending so much time on the internet? There are always exceptions.
Muscular body requires a ton of energy and protein to maintain. Not trying to get on a soapbox here, but I am personally trying to minimize my impact on the environment. This includes eating the minimum amount of protein required to stay healthy. I definitely won't waste the additional energy to maintain useless muscles (which are absolutely useless for a desk job), which will not even be visible under the baggy shirts I prefer to wear.
>useless muscles (which are absolutely useless for a desk job), which will not even be visible under the baggy shirts I prefer to wear.
This is cope if I've ever seen some. You can rationalize it anyway you want, but deep down you know that if you at this instant could have rock hard abs with perfectly sculpted body without any effort you'd take it. You'd find use for it.
One of them being that protein-dense foods always has a greater impact on the environment than other foodstuffs. There are plenty of vegetarian or even vegan bodybuilders, and we know how to isolate protein from vegetables. Pulses are protein-rich, if you don't want to eat isolated proteins.
The second one is that a muscular body will always require more energy than a non-muscular body. While muscle does have higher calorie requirements than most other kinds of tissue, most fit people actually eat less calories (and better quality calories) than unfit people, due to being used to keeping their diet under control.
The final one is that the only thing one might want to do with their life is their job. Even if you work a desk job, that doesn't mean you won't want to be physically active in your off time.
Not discipline - priorities. I'm lean and fairly fit, and while I would like to be a little bit more muscular I'd rather spend the time at the piano or with my family
Judging this is real hard since fairly fit means such different things for different people, but spending 5 hours a week at the gym isn't a big time investment. It obviously won't be getting you Mr. Olympia body, but it will make you bigger and stronger than most people.
Part of discipline is also fighting against excuses. Excuses like I don't have time to work out. I don't have time to prep my meals. That's why you need discipline.
Taking things to extreme you could wake up at 4:00 am to workout for an hour every single day. Obviously that means giving up on media consumption time during evening to get full night's of rest, but that is why you need discipline.
But true your milage may vary, but usually it is just discipline issue. People want instant gratification and do not want to wake up early to hit the gym before they head out to work.
That's a sizeable investment when you have kids. Which is fine -- but you definitely have to stop doing something else in order to do it. If like me (and perhaps parent comment) you _already_ don't passively consume media, go to bed early, etc, you really do have to trade something for it. And (again, perhaps like OP) if you are already healthy and fit (ex: I can play soccer for 2 hours) there's even less benefit (relative to your other pursuits). Which is all actually to say -- there are many people for whom discipline is certainly _not_ the issue.
All my meals are already home-cooked (and, in the summer, mostly home-grown), and I exercise for 30 mins 5 days a week (plus extra physical work in the garden at weekends). I'm fit enough. The extra couple of hours I'd need a week to build muscle are better spent doing something else, IMO
I've been fitter and I've been way unfit (in my 20s I was a gym rat), early thirties I ballooned to 245lbs and these days I sit around 185lbs (because of health reasons I struggle to eat enough to keep weight on) having lost 60lbs a few years ago via diet and exercise.
For someone approaching 40 I look decent physically (which is actually a problem since I have multiple serious health problems).
For me the cycling is important, it's both a fuck you to illness and a pressure valve - as a friend said once "it's impossible to be remain angry on a bike" as you just exert yourself harder.
Added to that is calisthenics every other day (planks, pressups, sit-ups and pull-ups) as I'm focussed on maintaining functional strength as much as I can.
Finally, I learned to get on a good program and TRACK MY MACROS. That's making a huge difference.
It's not always discipline. Sometimes it's finding the right program. It took me literally 20 years to figure that out, because I was laboring under the bad advice that "you should just eat healthy and you'll get there" that my dad kept telling me.
For the naturally skinny, you need a constant caloric surplus (or even just a regular amount of calories to recomp -- I couldn't even recomp effectively because I'd starve myself) or you're mostly wasting your time.
The funny thing is, physical appearance is the primary way we judge other people. Like Arnold said, "A well built physique is a status symbol. It reflects you worked hard for it, no money can buy it. You cannot borrow it, you cannot inherit it, you cannot steal it. You cannot hold onto it without constant work. It shows discipline, it shows self respect, it shows patience, work ethic and passion. That is why I do what I do."
> I do suspect that if you do add a lot of musculature to a tall frame it can be a bit intimidating in engineering cultures where most men are out of shape and view the activity as "meatheadish."
And it devolved into this:
>The followed up with a mountain of excuses about why they're too busy or they'd rather play piano or whatever other explanation is necessary for "I'm actively choosing to look like shit."
Jesus, I wasn't rooting for the scrawny nerds at the outset of this thread, but now I am.
So, I don't really find it far fetched that quite a few people by a reasonable definition "don't care", by which I mean they don't consider the benefits worth paying much cost at all, which I consider a fairly reasonable definition of "don't care." I'd like to know Sanskrit; if I could take a pill and know Sanskrit, I would. But do I really care? No. I won't pay my time and attention for it. It'd just be neat. Mostly, too high of an opportunity cost to spend the time on it. The same applies with body shape for me. It'd be nice, but it's not worth my effort. I won't pay much for it, so "I don't care."
It feels really silly to type that but I feel the ability to seamlessly fit into that culture is a big advantage.
Like, my fiancee is an attractive latina woman and she is the biggest geek I know, but she feels like she has to "prove herself" to other geeks. I hardly know anything about that culture but they instantly see me as one of them.
But those people are rare. For everyone else, it doesn't matter.
I do agree the dysmorphia is getting bad. I wouldn't be surprised at all to learn that anabolic steroid use is growing rapidly. I think it's really analogous to how in certain sports, athletes feel like they need to use anabolic steroids to even compete; now because of instagram (and even just more people in real life... I've seen a few people at my shitty gym who almost definitely are juicing) it feels like these huge juiced up guys are everywhere and it threatens regular people's masculinity
Just in general, there have been quite a few articles like this in the last few years. Particularly affects bodybuilding communities trying to get to sub 10% bodyfat. One of the problems is that lifting social media is basically Youtube recommendation on steriods (pun intended), the average lifter that lifts or diets for health doesn't get as much attention as the shredded one lifting big weights, probably on drugs, and if not, have genetics 99.99% of people doesn't and therefore have effectively zero chance of replicating.
Edit: another issue is because health culture likes to emphasis on hard work and discipline without acknowledging that 2sigma genetics is precursor to being at the very top. Kids see juiced idols who play the eat well and work hard card (including wholesome figures like Arnold), whose livelihood depends on perpetuating that myth, and telling the truth is tantamount to admitting you committed a crime due to legislation around steriods. The incentives are stacked.
For an 85kg man (average in UK is 83.6kg) that's as near as makes no odds 2.6x body weight.
For a 70kg woman (average in UK in 70.2kg) it's more than 3x body weight.
Generally anything more than 2x body weight is considered a solid deadlift for both men and women. Sure, not in powerlifting, but powerlifting is still pretty niche even amongst people who lift regularly.
(For comparison, I weigh 97kg (14-15% body fat) and would be over the moon with a 220kg deadlift. I'm heading in the right direction but a couple of unrelated skiing injuries have prevented me from getting there... and of course, I'm getting older, so who knows.)
EDIT: Corrected with ONS figures for average weights in UK.
On social media, the gold standard for bragging strong was 500 as little as 5 years ago, hence all the meme that 600 is the new 500 and now 700 is the new 500 everytime world records are pushed by elite athletes no one should be comparing themselves to. But for some reason a lot of lifters tend to do this even though very few people think if they train hard enough they can be faster or comparable to Usain Bolt.
I think it's a unique development with the intersection of social media and lifting culture. The bell curve for strength in the population hasn't changed, but the top 0.01% are increasingly visible and it's causing a crisis in social comparison that's not healthy. I don't know if it's a unique issue only for people involved in niche powerlifitng/bodybuilding subcultures, I think it's one of those situations where memes migrate up to general fitness/resistance training enthusiasts and starts to affect casual viewers who like to compare. There's also a fair amount of people who get into lifting due to self esteem reasons.
I think that's a bit ridiculous. I could lift nearly that untrained, albeit overweight. I'm 40.
Given the option, I'd be leaner and better at running!
There's a tendency (especially on the internet forums) to think that average muscle mass an capability is the same, when it varies a lot more.
It's ok if a person can't do a 50kg deadlift at the beginning. Everybody has their own limits.
It's OK to be to pull whatever weight, lifting should be about realistic self improvement and self empowerment. My point is because records are getting chipped so fast, and for the first time, extremely strong women are entering the stage due the raising popularity of lifting among women that it's causing a lot of issues (and toxicity) in lifting social media, which I recommend most people to stay away from.
They might be at a competition "junior" level but I'm willing to bet they have at least 5y.r. of experience lifting weights
She was competing already in 2014 (source https://www.openpowerlifting.org/u/jessicabuettner ) and she's also Type 1 diabetic
Also this is a competition/record level of weight for their bodyweight, men might be lifting 220kg for their usual workout
Completely agree.
But I think people are progressing earlier due to starting earlier, better information/training (and a bit of better/more accessible supplements) and their progress is getting more visible through social media.
Congrats to those breaking records in competitions but it's exactly that, outliers and records (and even then a lot of hard work to get there).
Hitting the gym can actually be pretty complementary to writing software or doing other sorts of engineering in the best possible way. For example, many people are psychologically messed up due to some sort of mental "baggage" that basically shows up as a somatic fight-or-flight response, albeit generally in an in-set, chronicized form rather than a literal stress reaction. This can place a significant cap on both your executive function and your self-perceived mental acuity. Hitting the gym is an excellent, time- and cost-effective way to work that stress out of your body and mind!
You need to devote a "non-trival" amount of time becoming a well rounded person or everything else is going to suffer, including your ability to maintain relationships in the workplace and communicate. That's way more important than knowing all the arcane details of the Java virtual machine.
What did you just call me?!
You might as well not trust anyone with a family or any kind of hobby outside of programming to write a decent program.
Nearly every notably brilliant programmer out there has other pursuits. You need to diversify your interests for your health and to gain inspiration from outside sources. Locking yourself into a bubble of software only makes you miss out on the world.
I don't see how you could be an intelligent, creative person and only be fixated on one thing your entire life. The smartest people I know have all sorts of creative outlets. I think I saw something that said a very large portion of Nobel prize winners are musicians, too.
Personally, I exercise because if I don't my mood suffers. It's a big problem, which I have found a solution to. Don't judge people.
I suppose there will always be the haters, though.
In my mid 40s I let myself go and got over 100kg (I'm ~6.3), but have dropped 10kg in the last 1.5 years and also gotten stronger. 2-3 sessions a week of Stronglifts 5x5 and riding instead of driving to work.
I reckon my head just works better as well. I find it much easier to concentrate for longer periods of time.
In the manosphere subculture it is called getting "mogged" as in Alpha Male Other Guy and in forums where they speak freely it is an acknowledged phenomena.
I get the impression lots of other nerd types have a similar chip on their shoulders, whether from real trauma or imagined. As I have become more fit and more outgoing over the years, I find it's harder to connect with other nerds, perhaps because I don't share the same victimhood fantasy, or maybe I just seem unapproachable to them? I don't know, but I definitely feel more apprehension than when I was a fat guy with bad posture and ill fitting clothes.
'Alpha' is a term of our times. Sorry, I don't define the language. Substitute 'cool kids' or 'socially elite' if it makes you feel better(assuming you want to feel better... maybe you enjoy being righteously indignant?).
I'm a nerd. I was bullied in school.
I was also fairly small and weak and non-sporty, so I was an easy target.
I also liked to talk and especially talk back to the bullies. Who knows, I might have even "psychologically" bullied other people using my wit and intelligence (several of my classmates complained to the teacher once that I would "insult" them which came as a total shock to me... was probably true but I wasn't doing it maliciously and wasn't consciously aware the impact it had on others).
It's really hard to generalize from 1 example.
I remember a lot of 'us'(the uncool kids, 'betas'(haha), nerds, dorks, dweebs, etc) being somewhat conflicted over the Columbine killings, because, while the perpetrators were absolute evil assholes, we understood why someone might feel justified in lashing out at the 'cool kids'(is that more acceptable than 'alpha'?).
There are definitely nerd bullies. Hell, my mom and uncle were exactly that in high school. They even used to taunt and make fun of my dad. Unfortunately for my mom, being a smart, sarcastic, cross-eyed nerd girl meant you had to sleep with the dorks, and behold, my family was born.
I'm sure there are some people that feel that way, but when it comes to leadership, and other areas in life the truth is that your frame will give you 'instinctual' benefits. Not to mention with women.
Life isn't fair. But don't feel bad for the positive traits that you do have.
If you frequent such places, you will inevitably pick up the concepts they use, like you did with "mogging". Once you have the concepts in your brain, you will begin to pattern-match them in daily life - like you did with "mogging". It is exactly this acquisition of "new concepts with which to view the world" which is interesting. But once you start habitually viewing the world through a manosphere lens, you are on a slippery slope to becoming like them. Take a look - do you want that?
tl;dr meme exposure is dangerous and should not be taken lightly - we don't have the mental separation we think we do. This is not calling you out or anything, just a PSA to you and anyone else reading this thread - innocent curiosity is how people get radicalized!
Rock/wall climbing is fun and you can really see yourself improve fast if you just have the discipline to get to the climbing gym three-ish times per week. Plus it will make you look good and feel better about yourself which will just make you all around better person.
Another is the weak need to get out of the way of the strong, and if you are struggling, it is your responsibility to become stronger.
Increasingly I feel personal philosophies are largely self-serving. You believe in things that will benefit you. As you gain strength in one area, you tend more towards the second philosophy.
However, I think believing that can easily turn people into bullies. Do we want a society that is optimized for the dominance of the few? Do we want to break every interaction down crudely into a competition between "the strong" and "the weak," despite the fact that human beings are complicated and are strong and weak in many different areas?
The mistake a lot of meatheads make is assuming because they have physical strength, they should be allowed to dominate. However, in modern society, I feel other forms of strength are much more important. Emotional strength. Moral strength. Intellectual strength. They don't have much to do with muscle size, despite what some seem to believe. We should respect character more and physical appearance less.
I'm actually gaining weight pretty quickly now after weight lifting, but I hope I never forget what it feels like to be pushed around, and I never let myself push around others.
As for modern society, there are many ways to view what is important and in what way. Questions like who is benefiting the most from these new masculinity rules (toxic masculinity, etc) posed on men has multiple answers.
Being mentally strong is not exclusive with being physically strong. In fact both should enhance one another. You should educate yourself on how to best take care and enhance your body and in return you get better functionality which enhances your mental capabilities.