Comment by kenjackson | Hacker News Reader

Comment by kenjackson | Hacker News Reader

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To quote:

"Startups may keep and continue to use, for development and testing purposes, all the software they received as part of their BizSpark MSDN Subscription. In other words, they have perpetual development and test rights to that software."

"The BizSpark Graduation Offer allows BizSpark startups to keep, at no charge, all the software they acquired through the BizSpark program"

"Under the graduation offer, the MSDN Ultimate licenses that came with BizSpark are perpetual, so startups keep all the tools and platform software they got from the program for development and testing purposes, including Visual Studio and Expression"

"Similarly, startups will also have perpetual rights to all of their Windows and SQL Server production licenses"

Now your claim may be that BizSpark doesn't supply enough licenses for you, but it is FREE. After BizSpark is done, you never have to pay MS a cent to keep and use the SW acquired in BizSpark.

In fact, I didn't realize they'd waived the $100 fee.

Like I said, if you want to upgrade or get additional licenses, you have to pay for those. You can build your $50B empire all on BizSpark, although you'll just have to write a very efficient backend to handle the transactions with only a couple of SQL instances, but there is nothing stopping you, but your ingenuity :-)

From that same page: The BizSpark Graduation Offer assumes a standard production configuration of 4 Windows Server Standard Edition and 2 SQL Server Standard Edition (Proc) which we believe will meet the needs of most startups. For startups who have different or greater needs, the BizSpark team will work with them to build a customized configuration at graduation.

I can't reveal details but the graduation offer Loopt has received (a customized configuration) is fantastic. We'll be much better off at the end than when we started, and don't regret it for a second.

It's absolutely not a bait and switch.

That's great that it works for you - and I don't think anyone is suggesting it's a bait and switch (I tried to be very careful with the post's wording). My point in this thread isn't that it's duplicitous - more that it's not free.

I'm sure you guys had to work some licensing (which probably came under an agreement to enroll in another program). This isn't free - it's an engagement. If you left the program you would have to pay, I'm sure.

And if it works for you - that's good stuff. I'd be very interested in reading about your choices and why you went this route.

You're absolutely right. I didn't intend to put words in your mouth. I've just had discussions before where that came up.

Loopt was paying for licensing before we joined, and will be paying less after.

I could be wrong, but as I understand it:

* The dev tools are free, and continue to be so at the end. This is a huge deal by itself.

* Some number of server licenses are perpetually free.

It's possible for it to be completely free, though it needn't be if you aren't careful or choose to exceed the limits.

And? How is them giving you free software proof that you're not getting free software?

That's like saying Apple gave me a 16GB iPhone, but I want a 32GB version, therefore its not free.

Of course we're talking about Microsoft so bizarro logic now applies.

Quoting you:

> You can in theory, build Google on it, make $50B over 20 years, and never pay MS a dime, all while using MS software.

> That's like saying Apple gave me a 16GB iPhone, but I want a 32GB version, therefore its not free.

I agree, it would seem bizarro logic does indeed apply.

And? Where's the logical flaw? There is none. Honestly, this is the type of stuff I could show to a high school critical thinking class and most of the class would understand it. Maybe my bar for HN is too high.

Unfortunately typing slower doesn't have the same impact as talking slower.

Please read the Hacker News guidelines, they're available at: http://ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

It's not free - the thing you're not seeing here is that if you don't qualify for the continued "free-ness" of BizSpark (meaning re-upping), then you need to buy an MSDN license and make sure that your dev staff is covered appropriately with those licenses.

You CANNOT run production SQL on an MSDN license - neither can you run a web server on an MSDN licensed version of Windows Server. Well, you literally can but you'd be in violation.

It's not FREE. Microsoft doesn't make software to give it out to anyone claiming they're a startup. Read the entire FAQ in its entirety, then understand the licensing for web servers and web data servers - you'll quickly see that you'll need to enroll in other programs (ISV or otherwise) to get the discounts.

Rob you continue to appear to lie on this thread (or are using very sophisticated doubletalk). The devtools are free. You never need to purchase another MSDN license if the current toolset does the job.

Quote me a single line that says thay the dev tools you have a license to must be purchased after BizSpark.

I don't mind having a discussion about this stuff, but calling me a liar is a bit out of bounds.

Now - here's the thing: I've said the same thing 5 times, and you refuse to see it - which is that the software isn't free. The dev tools are covered under MSDN - so yes I'll give you that. And you can engineer it so that your dev team stays very small and you don't need to purchase additional slots.

But that's where it stops. If you run the MS stack with VS, you'll need IIS, SQL Server, and all the other bits that go with it. These are the money-making SKUs friend - and that's my point.

They. Aren't. Free.

So which is it? Devtools? Or can I build $50B Google for free, as you said above.

Double talk indeed.

Again, something that is simply not true. I don't have another way to say it, but to say that it is not true, and it gives the appearance of lying, because I think most people would expect you to know better.

So again, you do get licensed production servers for free. Not an unlimited number of them, but you do get FREE production licenses of WinServer (which includes IIS) and SQL Server.

And yes, you can build, in theory, $50B Google for free with it. Of course, I did say, in theory, and I make it blisteringly clear later when I say, "although you'll just have to write a very efficient backend to handle the transactions with only a couple of SQL instances, but there is nothing stopping you, but your ingenuity".

There's never an obligation to pay MS a dime. You can use the tools to write the new BigTable, to write a web server, a NoSql engine, a package manager or whatever else you like as well to compliment the free software you have.

IMO, I think we've done the job w/ this conversation. You've made the "claim" that BizSpark is not free (although you've backed away from this a bit and now at least seem to grant that the dev tools are). I claim otherwise. BizSpark very clearly calls out what is free and what is perpetual. Sure, you don't get a washer and dryer with BizSpark, but they never said you did. Likewise, I don't believe BizSpark gives you a free Kinect either. But it is very clear what they do give you and the licensing and cost associated with it.

Again, you haven't pointed out where I'd have to pay for a single thing with BizSpark. You've only pointed out that if I want to do MORE than what BizSpark suggests, I'd have to pay. To that I say, duh.

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