Comment by spurmboy | Hacker News Reader

Comment by spurmboy | Hacker News Reader

Parent Full thread

No, actually you are wrong! I’ve been an ev freak for a long time. Lots of people made EVs. Are you going to say next that Tesla didn’t do anything because karma was making evs as well ten years ago? Tesla absolutely did drag everyone else kicking and screaming, besides Nissan and some others. Tesla was the first company to make a serious ev that looked like a normal car and claimed to be like a normal car, not some niche golf cart like the leaf. Tesla was the first one to encroach on ice territory in this way, and everyone hated them for it. The other car companies hated them, the New York Times hated them and wrote false stories about the model s, even top gear got in on the action and staged a battery failure on their review of the roadster. Gawker maintained a death watch on Tesla. People in general loved to hate Tesla. I remember very clearly because as a Tesla “fan boy” in 2010 I didn’t make very many friends to say the very least. To EV people who were watching all this happen a decade ago, and there weren’t many of us back then, the overwhelming consensus was that Tesla was the only one pushing things forward and they got enormous pushback from every other entity in the automotive industry as a whole besides a few people. Nissan was not pushing things forward. They made a golf cart that looked like an insect. They showed no signs of making a real sedan like Tesla. They didn’t build charging infrastructure. I’m sorry man but you are flat out wrong. Go ahead and call me fanboy, it won’t make you any less wrong.

As someone who has owned both the Leaf and the Model S I agree with this. The only value of the Leaf was it was a very inexpensive but embarrassing way to get a carpool lane sticker in the Bay Area. It could not drive at highway speed for any material distance so “commuter’s golf cart” is accurate.

But now the Model S is the best sedan on the road at any price, and I’ve driven the 2019 BMWs and others. The interiors are cluttered up with incoherent “luxury” features to try to justify the price point, but nothing works that well together except for the drivetrain itself. I don’t want a crystal shifter knob and eight different buttons to lower the rear seats and a head-up display that occasionally knows the speed limit and iPads protruding from the seat backs and a lane-keeping feature that randomly jerks the wheel. This stuff makes the retracting door handles on the Tesla seem almost practical.

I do want a car that drives great and looks great and minimizes maintenance and running costs. No ICE drivetrain can deliver the same acceleration thrill as the Tesla drivetrain, so what’s the point? The only thing left is range and hauling power, so pickup trucks, vans, and for now, SUVs.

Tesla’s lack of “incoherent luxury” is so refreshing to me too. It’s incidental but very nice.

What, Elon came to his senses and added a vented seats option back to Model S? Not that this were even a particularly high-end luxury feature now.

No number of additional premium features can compensate for an overall worse driving and ownership experience. It’s basically a new class of car. I was very skeptical but that’s the truth.

Of course, some won’t value what it can do, but the hate over minor details is not justified.

That's really depends on what you want from a car, doesn't it? For me, all personal and IMHO, of course, multi-month repairs over trivial issues, having to plan your trips around charger stations, and, yes, lack of luxuries that are by today not out of place even in in midrange cars costing less than half the price of a model S... that's not minor issues.

And of course I am too old and cynical, and want my stick shift back, but the driving experience in Model S was very much blah. That's one of those things that you can do well only if you know how to build cars, not computers on wheels.

As for ownership experience, maybe it is that bad with BMW, although I doubt it, but I've never had any problems with Audi, and it has been far more pleasant than what I've heard of Tesla...

It's incredibly short-sighted to not call the Nissan leaf a serious EV, just because you happen to not be in the target market. I understand there is some frustration and venting in your post, but there is no reason for being derogatory about products that happen to not be targeted at you, or at California. California is not the center of the world, and neither are you.

What's a niche golf cart is the US is a mainstream car in France (or Japan). There's a reason why Renault's equivalent of the Nissan Leaf, called Renault Zoe, is even smaller than the Leaf: it's tailored to the French urban market.

Interestingly the German market is probably more vulnerable to Tesla than the French one (since after all this is about BMW). Tesla is after the like of BMW, Mercedes, Audi, Lexus, etc. But not the like of Renault, Peugeot, Nissan, Honda, Volkswagen, Opel, Fiat, etc. (Though of course Volkswagen owns Audi, so it's not all that simple...).

As a New-Yorker (currently, hopefully not for too long) I stand on the side: I don't even have a valid US driver license. I mean, what could I possibly do with a car in NYC?

What a bunch of nonsense. I never said the leaf isn’t a serious ev. I said it’s a golf cart because that’s what it is. It can barely make it on the highway and has a very limited range. Some people want that. Most people want something like a Toyota Corolla (literally most people according to sales) and nobody in the ev community had tried to challenge the corolla segment until Tesla. That’s all I’m saying. I’m not saying that the leaf isn’t “serious.” What is even the point of your comment? Did you even read into the context and sentiment of my comment? I said nobody made a good looking, long range ev and pushed it with charging infrastructure until Tesla did it. What does that have to do with a bunch or rude Parisians driving around in clown cars? Nothing. Go back to France.

Doubling down on it being a golf cart sure sounds like you dont think it is a serious EV to me, unless you think golf carts are serious EV's.. Just saying.

Leaf is a shitty car, for car people.

But huge majority of people aren't car enthusiasts, so they don't care. They want affordable and easy way of moving from point A to point B.

Getting car people excited is great. But you need to target average joe if you want to change the world.

Leaf was a bad car for the average joe, too.

I'm sure it was perfect for some people - just like a smart car. But it would fall down for typical daily usage for lots of people who don't care about cars, but do have a highway commute, say.

I just wanted to go from my house in Berkeley to Palo Alto and back without having to stop and recharge for an hour at Whole Foods.

It was an ok car if you never, ever needed to use a highway.

Reply on news.ycombinator.com