Comment by ominous_prime | Hacker News Reader

Comment by ominous_prime | Hacker News Reader

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I find more often than not, that "abrupt and to-the-point" is mistaken for "rude and offensive". A FOSS community is a meritocracy, and there's a lot of people who stroll in with a lot of talk, nothing to back it up. The few that show up with code and/or data are often received very well.

People with the aptitude to become community or project leaders often like a good debate (OK, sometimes it seems like an argument), and will often provoke it, if only to see how well the point can be defended. When the chips are down though, rational decisions based on facts is what wins.

I may not be as gruff as some of the more infamous names around, but I will often argue a point, as well as play devil's advocate, just to see how the debate plays out. I learn a lot that way, whether I'm correct or not.

[Edit] Re:Linus I agree that Linus' reply was a rude, and perhaps I've been desensitized to this over time, and let it slide too often. My comment however, was meant for the more general case to which I replied.

> I find more often than not, that "abrupt and to-the-point" is mistaken for "rude and offensive".

Calling someone's theory bullshit is rude and offensive. Telling someone they are full of shit is also. Abrupt and to the point as a general class of communication further is often rude. Making or attempting to make people feel worse than you need to to get your point across efficiently is offensive.

In this case, for example, Linus could have simply said, "That's a nice theory. If you can prove it, we'll consider it." That's more to-the-point, communicates the entirety of what Linus managed to in his email, and also is not rude.

I disagree. There are hundreds if not thousands of people willing to waste his time (Linus) with theory and conversation, his abrupt, rude tone makes it clear that unless you are communicating actual information, not just theories, don't bother him with this stuff. It is rude but I expect he does not want to be bothered with fluff, only real information.

I agree in this case (see my edit). It seems most people in a working FOSS community will give quite a bit of slack to someone who's proven their value.

There is also context and a dynamic that outsiders may not always aware of. A colleague of mine could say "you're full of shit - come back with something that works", and I would be more likely to take that as a challenge than an insult. Similarly, within the LKML, this response is somewhat expected, and you better have your defense ready for the ensuing battle.

From Linus' post:

"And you're just full of bullshit."

You can be "abrupt and to the point" without personal attacks. Linus personally attacked him, without knowing all the facts.

Get a bunch of egotistical, powerful, and moderately financially successful aspies together and have them solve a problem. This is a recipe for disaster and anybody who reads the kernel mailing list knows it. Sadly about half the coders I know in real life are even worse than Linus.

There is a broad line between what you describe, and how Torvalds was acting in that thread.

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