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Comment by sandworm101 | Hacker News Reader

If you want to learn to speak english well, watch those programs that use English properly. Blackadder. Archer. Sherlock. Even some of the marvel movies (GOTG) are very careful in how they pronounce and articulate words. Then watch every Brian Cox and Attenborough documentary. You might come out with a bit of a British accent but that is far far better than any youtube-derived accent. Better you sound like Stirling Archer than [insert random youtube person].

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So you're equating using English "properly" with British (specifically, English) English? From a linguistic point of view, you couldn't be more wrong.

No variety of any language is superior to another

Not variety or accent. These shows use words carefully. They speak in exact meanings. The use a wider vocabulary and do not blur words. In fact much of their humor is based on misunderstandings rooted in pronunciation. Archer makes jokes about furriers and farriers. Blackadder about the formal name "Captain Darling" and the pet name "my darling", forcing the listener to maintain an understanding of context. These tricks aren't used on The Simpsons or the Big Bang Theory, shows largely aimed at lowest common denominators. Such differences are irrespective of accent or dialect.

For starters one of them - Archer - is American, not British. And nobody is saying one language is better than the other, but certainly with these programs you won't pick up bad habits like using "hence why" or confusing "than" and "then" (which I see ALL the time here on HN).

It's not even a UK vs USA thing - for me (a Scot) I notice that large parts of southern England have appalling pronunciation ("fing" vs "thing", "bovver" instead of "bother", pronouncing "r" like "w" - see how the guy on the right pronounces "presentation" as "pwesentation", and "Ryzen" like "Wyzen" here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lP2QkBnRqko), and that's the most populous region so much of our TV would also be no-go for English learners.

You are just attaching prestige to some variants of the language over others. It just so happens that variants of English spoken by professional classes in the SE of England or NE USA are more prestigious (at least for some) than variants of English in a pub in Liverpool or Glasgow, but those other variants are not "wrong" and don't have "appalling pronunciation", they just have different pronunciation.

If there was a revolution and the residents of liverpool became the new ruling classes then pretty quickly that would be the "correct" variant and the queen's English would be the "appalling pronunciation".

>> You are just attaching prestige to some variants of the language over others.

Yes. This is about people wanting to improve their english. They have identified that their english is less than they deem acceptable. If you want to improve, you need something to aim for. So that does indeed mean putting one version over another.

I'm not sure if you read my comment right, it seems you have understood it exactly the wrong way round. I'm Scottish, saying that contrary to popular belief it is actually the south of England who make the most bizarre pronunciation choices in the UK

The guy in the video I linked is actually an excellent example of the "professional class", and should by conventional wisdom be the kind of pronunciation you should aim for ... but you'd be entirely wrong to do so.

Every word in the English language is a poorly pronounced version of some older word that preceded it. What makes some words as pronounced in the south of England bizarre or wrong?

Well the whole point of this is that someone was suggesting examples of good English, someone balked at the idea that British English should be considered "proper" and I suggested that this wasn't the intended point point and added that even supposedly highly regarded accents of British English might not be considered proper by someone from that same country. I don't think it's helpful in this context to shrug your shoulders and say that English is evolving so there's no good or bad examples of pronunciation.

As to why these sound wrong to me, I'm from an area that is looked down on accent-wise and is sort of the subject of ridicule (usually just for fun). Since I moved abroad and mix in pretty multi-cultural circles I've seen first-hand what non-native-English speakers have trouble understanding when they talk to an English-native speaker, and I've often reflected on what caused this. One thing that surprised me was how easily my fellow Scots have been understood and how much difficulty people had understanding the English, since I was always led to believe that we are the ones who talk incorrectly. And it was this that made me realise how their pronunciation can stray far from the supposedly correct one - I gave a couple of examples to demonstrate this. There are plenty more if you listen carefully. The "how do you pronounce..." part of the NY Times British & Irish accent quiz was really quite good at illustrating this: https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2019/02/15/upshot/britis... (door/poor, farm/palm, horse/hoarse from there are nice examples).

So yeh sure, nothing is "wrong" in English and all that - there's no central authority that should dictate this. But when it comes to accents and clarity not all is as it might seem at first blush.

Agreed. I grew up watching "Yes Prime Minister" and anything Monty Python in Norway. Has served me well in Australia.

Further to this, I've also worked on my diction using a number of available resources such as https://www.audible.com.au/search?keywords=get+rid+of+your+a... .

I could never fully appropriate the Australian accent, but something more akin to British becomes non-determinate and easier on the ear (ref: how people prefer speech synthesis in a different English region to their own).

It kind of surprises me that more non-native English speakers don't do the same; I have worked with people who I've really struggled to understand. But I can't really tell them "can you please work on your accent", as much as I wish I could and I knew it would serve them well.

A bit of Fry and Laurie, on language:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3MWpHQQ-wQg

So you would also recommend watching Archer and H. Jon Benjamin animated series? (Bob's Burgers) I'd certainly recommend them though I'm not sure he's a canonical example of the language.

By watching Archer you might also perhaps, better understand when things are phrased inappropriately?

He isn't. The archer writers are. The Bobs Burger's writers are not. It isn't about sound or accent. It is about language. Bob will slur his words slight, and uses are much lower vocabulary. Archer does the opposite. The actor is a small part of that distinction.

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