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Comment by hallihax | Hacker News Reader

Speaking as somebody who does enjoy a vegan boiger - 'health' and 'nutrition' are not things I'm looking at when I want a burger.

This whole debate is one big straw-man. I'm a vegan. I don't need burgers. I might want burgers, but they don't form a part of a standard diet just in the same way any kind of burger probably shouldn't form part of anybody's regular diet.

If you're eating processed food - there's a considerable chance that whatever it is you're eating - vegan or otherwise - is neither nutritious nor healthy. It probably tastes good though, which is why you want it in the first place.

Ultimately it boils down to this: if I'm eating a burger, then nutrition and health are more or less irrelevant - I'm after taste. I think the lives of animals are more important than my taste-buds, so I eat plant-based burgers. It's not really any more complicated than that.

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„In a related study, the same authors found that electric cars on average are not any faster than petrol based cars.“

On average, in cities like London, driving is more or less the same speed as walking.

I feel like you missed the point of the analogy you were responding to, or you just wanted to shift the discussion to be about cars in cities. Either way I'm confused what your point is.

It's possible I missed the point - but I'll leave it to the OP to correct me. My point was that 'vegan vs non-vegan' is not a choice people make based on factors like those they might use to make a decision between petrol vs electric.

Precisely.

And if you have enough veggies and vegans around you, you know that they can eat as much junk food as everyone else.

Sugar is vegan, after all.

I'm guilty myself - my city has exploded with vegan stuff over the last couple of years and my waistline has expanded in-line with it :P

Some sugar is vegan. Most isn’t, though most vegans I know conveniently ignore that: [1]

[1] https://www.peta.org/living/food/is-sugar-vegan/

Considering sugar to be non vegan just because it has possibly been filtered using animal derived coal is not far away from considering products made by workers who consumed meat to also be non-vegan.

The definition of vegan changes depending on who you ask.

A good sugar and salt dry rub is excellent on a rack of ribs.

Um. Is PETA considered a reliable source?

Considering they are one of the most extremist and hypocritical organizations I can think of I would certainly vote a strong no on that

I don't know many skinny vegetarians. Eating nothing but carbs and butter is vegetarian and extremely unhealthy.

There are plenty of super high protein vegetatian and vegan options available. Many nuts, and pulses are in the same ballpark as even red meat.

Consider that most people aren't strictly carnivorous, and are usually pairing a burger with 600 calories of fries, and a 400 calorie bun, which is all carb.

Not by any chance, when I eat nut they tend to deplete my minerals, requiring constants supplementation. Plus, I think some aminoacids are difficult to source from vegetarian sources. I personally do great on glycine (skin, eyes, hair, overall inflammation, sleep) and have not found a veggie source.

Nothing is in the same ballpark as red meat in terms of nutrition density and bioavailability.

A beef steak is about 270 calories for 30g of protein, cooked lentils are about 22g for the same number of calories. I'm not researched enough in bioavailability to comment on that part.

For an 80kg man, the "recommended" protein intake is about 64g, the difference in calories is fairly minute (assuming you compare 100% meat vs 100% lentils). If you're training/weightlifting and following the advice of 2-3g per kg of bodyweight, you're almost certainly going to supplement your protein intake anyway. Protein supplements are 2-3x the density of red meat, and available in vegan options if that's your thing.

The bioavailability of protein from lentils is about 60%. So your cherrypicked comparison has about 50% of the useful protein content of beef.

Macronutrients are not the entire picture. If you look into micronutrients you’ll find all of the essentials in beef, some are not found at all in plant sources.

Be careful about all fda recommendations, they were heavily influenced by lobbying from the sugar / grain / cereal industry and are not being updated in step with science.

Maybe you just run in extremely unhealthy circles.

In India, we vegetarians eat main courses made of vegetables and pulses, with grain-based bread or white /brown rice. Thus, we don't eat only carbs and butter, but lots of (in fact, mainly) vegetables too.

I do not know about the availability of vegetables in mainly meat-eating countries. I do know that vegetables may not often come to mind, and indeed I'm amused at various powdered vegetable drinks :)

India has the highest rates of depression and one of the highest rates of heart disease, I posit this is because their exceptionally low intake of nutrition from animals.

Hong Kong, with the highest consumption of meat per capita, has the highest life expectancy in the world.

Do you think vegans eat 'nothing but carbs and butter'?

Sure vegan burgers have their target market, but if they were healthy in addition to being vegan they would appeal to a larger market.

This is true of non-vegan burgers too, surely?

No. Vegan burgers have a small target market, and are not very appealing for most of the people. Non vegans would consider buying vegan burger if it had some advantage. Most of vegans would not consider buying normal burger even if it was better for their health. (I have a friend who keeps vegan diet even though she has to take vitamin suplements).

Why would 'health' be a contributing factor for sales of vegan burgers but not non-vegan burgers?

Market for vegan burgers that have the same health effect as non-vegan burgers is vegans (including people who try to become vegans). Because if it tastes the same or worse as meat costs about the same (usually more), what is the reason to buy them instead of normal burger or something like falafel.

Market for vegan burgers with better health effect than non-vegan burgers is vegans+health concerned non-vegans which is much larger than vegans alone.

Market for non-vegan burgers is always non-vegans. Being more healthy can affect the standing of particular non-vegan burger among other non-vegan burgers, but is unlikely to attract many vegans (which is an order of magnitude smaller market anyway and couldn't have high impact on the larger non-vegan market).

I think you're overestimating the number of people who are vegan for health reasons. People who are health conscious don't choose burgers - whether they're vegan or not, and most vegans who choose burgers are looking for taste, not nutrition.

It's a false equivalence. Burgers are not healthy - and very, very few people are looking for 'healthy burgers'. People are looking for 'tasty burgers', which is why so much effort is put into replicating the flavour and texture of meat.

I never talked about people who are vegan for health reasons (†). I was talking about people who are not vegan, and would like to eat less meat if it is healthy. The reasons you describe is exactly why vegan burgers are not appealing to the larger market of non-vegans.

(†) I believe if they were health conscious, they would it less meat, but would not be vegan.

There are vegetarian/vegan burgers available with fewer calories, often containing more beans or vegetables. They've been available for longer than the Impossible or Beyond burgers without gaining nearly as much public mindshare. A random example sold at my local grocery store:

http://drpraegers.com/our-food/california-veggie-burgers/ Ingredients: Carrots, Onions, String Beans, Oat Bran, Soybeans, Zucchini, Expeller Pressed Canola Oil, Peas, Broccoli, Corn, Soy Flour, Spinach, Red Peppers, Arrowroot Powder, Corn Starch, Garlic, Corn Meal, Sea Salt, Spices

They don't taste or feel like burgers, though. It seems that the products that taste like burgers (which require more fat and won't accommodate stuff like carrots and broccoli) are the ones that appeal to a larger market.

I eat burgers for my health. Often with no bun or fries. The more of my calories come from beef, the better I feel.

Feels != facts

Your original comment was 100% feels so it's interesting that this is your response.

My original comment was clearly anecdotal, which is not the same thing as being '100% feels'.

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