Seasteading
seasteading.org
seasteading.org
Ask them their opinions on the big crimes (murder/rape/arson etc). Will they allow me to keep slaves on my seastead? Of course not. May I operate an industrial smelter and dump the waste overboard? May I buys some guns, capture other seasteads and setup my own dictatorship? These people don't want to escape the real laws, just the handful of minor regulations with which they disagree. These are nothing more than rich randians complaining about their tax bracket.
[0] https://www.theadvocates.org/2019/05/couple-could-be-impriso...
That is cutting :)
An enjoyable read, thanks for the link.
> Ask them their opinions on the big crimes (murder/rape/arson etc). Will they allow me to keep slaves on my seastead?
Are you complaining that there are not enough crazy people?
No one wants to escape the real laws, because they are proven to be necessary for the society to work, and everyone agrees about them. The "minor regulations" are the laws that make all the difference.
> These are nothing more than rich randians complaining about their tax bracket
When this "rich randians" make the technology for living and working in a floating city cheap, they not only will get what they want but also will make it possible for "brave marxians" to try out their ideas too, and maybe they'll finally will build the society that will show to everyone that high taxes and planned economy are the best things.
I'm not holding my breath
There are (next to) no laws that are internationally agreed upon.
So okay: slavery is horrible, and illegal (by law) in a lot of places. But not in Mali, where hundreds of thousands of people are either indentured servants, or quite literally slaves.
So: sure, it's reasonable to assume any well-intentioned group of people will come up with some kind of basic law book, but not everyone is well-intentioned, and the question about "who runs the court?", especially for a place as tiny as this, is an excellent question to pose, because you really can't rely on common sense to lead to fair trials.
> "who runs the court?", especially for a place as tiny as this
While they are tiny they'll have to use court of an existing country.
15th century England. The royal houses, and most of the entire landed aristocracy, were encouraged to murder and steal from each other regularly. Those who exercised and demonstrated the most power, the greatest capacity for violence, were promoted. That's how we picked kings.
"By the grace of god", a phrase in many constitutional documents to this day, isn't a beam of light. Victory in battle was evidence of divine approval. It means that God picked your side in whatever war was fought to put your family on the throne. Violence was the core of society then and, arguably, remains so in constitutional monarchies today. (Canada, UK, Australia etc).
In the Magna Carta:
"39. No freemen shall be taken or imprisoned or disseised or exiled or in any way destroyed, nor will we go upon him nor send upon him, except by the lawful judgment of his peers or by the law of the land."
>> no laws against murder
Murder is a crime, an unlawful killing. A law forbidding something already defined as a crime is circular. A great many killings, those in combat, were not illegal and therefore not murder. So while murder was illegal killing was not, at least not always. And at the highest levels those who won the war, those best at killing, decided who would be punished, if anyone. The legal definitions were beside the point.
When Magna Carta was signed, there will have been a large number of villeins and other serfs. A serf is recognised in law as a person and so you can't _own_ them, indeed they can own other things. Villeins are serfs that come with land. Like you'll own a bunch of farm land, and there will be fifty people who you don't own, but they aren't allowed to leave without permission. They farm stuff, you feed them, it's... well it's not very nice, but it isn't chattel slavery, people would have voluntarily become villeins because it meant food security when famines were a possibility.
Anyway, by the 15th century there are fewer villeins, it just doesn't make as much sense as a plague has wiped a bunch of people out, making labour very valuable - but until the 1500s there are at least some left in England.
But I'm pretty sure that killing serfs was not considered OK. I dunno if they'd have executed you for it, and that period wasn't really into prisons, but I'm pretty sure they wouldn't have gone "OK, that seems fine, nothing to see".
But if you re looking for a similar example take the armies. They all have lawful license to murder they just disagree on who to kill.
> They all have lawful license to murder they just disagree on who to kill.
That falls under the special circumstances, and implies that normally murder is unlawful.
I'm looking forward to an union of floating egoists, equipped with fancy glasses, a gallant smile, and contempt for spooked randians and marxists, while unsucessfully trying to disrupt the dairy market.
Its like all the people who claim they want to live out in the wilderness tax free and be left alone but in reality they live just on the edge of society so they can continue to come and go as they please.
If they ever get into a storm and need help: yes.
Hacking society has issues given that random internal change of a society can have serious consequences for the members of that society.
Modern democratic society has various safety nets that to various extents cushion members from random fluctuations that happen even without hacking.
Sure, it seems fine when a group of individuals start-up a system "knowing what they're getting into". But it's generally no really possible for 19 year old joining the latest new trend to really know what they're getting into. We saw a whole flock of cults and unfortunate effects coming out of the hippy communes in the 1960s. But when a commune went bad, it was somewhat minor because the people could just leave. I shudder to what happens if things go bad in a platform in the middle of the ocean (and recall problems have already appeared).
Similarly, it's the dream of every hacker to find a sandbox world where they can experiment to their heart's content. These government and society hackers as much as anyone.
There have been examples throughout history of 'partial sovereignty', the one closest to mind is that of the Native American nations in the US. They're sovereign in most of the ways that matter while still retaining the ability to bring in the grownups when things get serious.
The other example I can think of is the British concept of political devolution, whereby four independent countries with their own governments fit neatly into the collective United Kingdom, whereby the countries can demand ever greater self-rule through democratic process. This is how Ireland became both the Republic of Ireland and the UK country of Northern Ireland arose. What's now the Republic of Ireland wanted a complete break, while Northern Ireland still wants to be a part of the UK.
This is different from the federal system that most countries use, where provinces are forever subordinate to the larger collective. There is no political process available for secession in the US or most anywhere else except the UK, so demands for self-governance usually result in nothing or in civil war.
We should greatly encourage people to experiment with new political structures, and we can look to the Brits for inspiration on how to make that work. They tolerated Sealand until the whole project collapsed under its own weight. Which is pretty much how you want it to happen. War is the usual instrument by which new sovereignties are created. A peaceful way to blow away political cruft has great potential to eventually improve a lot of lives. It's been shown that the primary thing that keeps many people in perpetual poverty is rules, it's the founding principle behind the concept of charter cities.
There's room for experimentation here.
Technically, "sandbox" an area of safe experiment cordorned from the rest of the system. Seasteading would have real, permanent consequences considering the agenda involves recruiting a large number of people.
It's been shown that the primary thing that keeps many people in perpetual poverty is rules, it's the founding principle behind the concept of charter cities.
This claim is dubious in the extreme. In the areas of the world with little poverty, you generally find well developed rule system. Similarly, areas with great, squalid levels of poverty often have few-to-no rules.
Sure, that's kind of the whole point. Try things out. You can always move back to your home country if it doesn't work out. Exactly what consequences are you trying to claim would happen?
The point of these kinds of things are that everybody can have a say in how things are run, a bit like an HOA where everybody isn't just creating an intentional living community, they're creating a whole new concept for organizing a society. The United States alone has many examples of this, from communes all the way up to the Mormon church. Lots of failures, a few phenomenal successes.
> In the areas of the world with little poverty, you generally find well developed rule system. Similarly, areas with great, squalid levels of poverty often have few-to-no rules.
That's the charter city argument. No rules means that people with power get to decide who gets to do what. By making a new city with new, commerce-friendly rules, the hope is to replicate the success of Hong Kong.
If they were genuine attempts to recast society in a new light, they would be interesting. Most of them are simply childish attempts to evade tax. And many, many people trying to opt out of things like social safety nets will end up needing them. Are we to leave them to die, as their choice would seem to dictate?
From where do you get the right to "stop them" (which implies initiating or (at least escalating if you believe they have aggressed against you, which I'd love to here your rationale for that) aggression against them)? Do you believe you have a right to other people's stuff? Where do you believe rights come from?
Surely some of those ideas attract selfish people, but is it that unreasonable to think that a lot of them actually believe in the stated mission?
Is it possible to distinguish someone who thinks taxes are good from society from someone who hates everyone better off from themselves?
So what does this mean for people who support progressive tax brackets? Since they think they should pay a smaller share of their income than others - and specifically that those better off should pay more than they do.
What's your point? They also think they should pay a higher share of their income than others.
Hell, my roommate pays as much in taxes than I make, yet he still comes home with more money than I do.
You could also make the argument along other lines, such as that the wealthiest individuals have benefitted most from the cohesion/quality of the society, and should therefore be most responsible for its upkeep in kind.
Making the exemption wider doesn't really escape your earlier argument.
And yes, even though it wasn't my point to begin with, it is possible to distinguish ideologies in the case of wanting higher taxes vs in the case of wanting lower taxes by outcome. In the case of wanting lower taxes, without regard to ideology, both payers would want the taxes on themselves to tend to zero. In the case of higher taxes, the ideologies do differ by outcome in that the ideological party will want to pay something herself, whereas the disgruntled party would have to impose taxes on "the rich" and not on themselves (relatively) to achieve a desirable outcome (this assumes they don't "hate" themselves as well).
Note that this thinking only applies to nations which are currency users, not currency issuers.
For a nation with it's own fiat currency (currency issuers) government spending creates money, and the role of taxes is not to fund spending. Taxes fulfill other roles, like controlling inflation and expressing social policy.
If government spending creates money where does the money the government spends come from?
There are good reasons why budgets should be close to balanced most of the time.
Yes. All the flat tax supporters. A great many people, wealthy people, feel that taxation should not be progressive. They agree that taxes are necessary but disagree with them paying more than poor people do.
Also, use-based taxation proponents. They agree that infrastructure needs to be built and that taxes are required to do so, but do not believe that they should pay for such things if they are not using them.
So yes, there are a great many east lines to be drawn between people who think taxation is evil and those simply unhappy with how much they as individuals have to pay.
If that is a problem, it is a problem for those advocating these policies. If you selflessly advocate policies benefiting the wealthy, low and behold, many of those seeking to benefit will appear. If these types generate corruption or exploitation, how do you filter them out?
In general, a lot of low-regulation, low-tax advocates claim that selfishness isn't a problem, that these approaches can benefit everyone even when everyone looks out for themselves.
The problem with such approach is they don't consider that those attracted to these approaches for selfish reasons aren't going to be satisfied with simply an efficient, meritocratic system that turns selfishness to a universal benefit and that instead the truly selfish cheat, take any resource they can get access to and essentially spoil many idealized "general benefit through individual benefit" systems, turning them into just "the strong prey on the weak" approaches.
And those on the sidelines looking at the situation can say, "Oh, looks a few people actually believed this stuff, too bad for them that the overall process was swamped by those just aiming for a buck." But this situation doesn't raise our overall admiration for any of them.
I am not saying that the tax should be 0% as governments provide some useful services, but 50% is way too much to buy a bundle of services you can't pick from. The only way to find a better balance is to be able to experiment with different ways of organizing government, and seasteading could help with this.
I think whatever point there is to this argument has been made.
I hope you agree that so far in all places where state tried to take all the money and redistribute everyone ended up worse off (USSR, North Korea, Cuba, Maoist China, Venezuela). You may not agree, but as far as i can tell Europe is lagging behind USA in terms of innovation because of higher taxes. And Singapore's economy is growing faster than US because of lower tax rate.
I am not suggesting that all taxes should be eliminated or even that they should be returned to their pre WW1 levels, but based on this i think it is a reasonable hypothesis that lower tax could be more beneficial for society, and if some people want to test that out on a seastead they should not be met with hostility for trying to destroy the social state and not pay taxes.
Ask them if they are currently living in a country with a centralized government, a police force, civil society, etc. If the answer is yes, you don't have to listen to them anymore.
In the end, does it matter? We don't really know what each other is thinking. If we're debating social framework (like tax), we can only judge people based on their behavior. If their behavior is indistinguishable, how they arrived there is irrelevant, in a sense.
So, basically following the precedent of human beings across all of recorded human history and almost certainly for much longer.
Ask them their opinions on the big crimes (murder/rape/arson etc). Will they allow me to keep slaves on my seastead? Of course not.
In 2019, savvy humans should look askance at everyone who proposes new governments or changes to existing governments without prioritizing a first-principles approach to preserving fundamental human rights. As far as we know, such a principles based approach -- which disperses power and takes into account people's natural tendency towards groupthink/tribalism, bias, and corruption -- does the best job of preserving human rights and increasing the general welfare. It's not perfect. It will have problems, but it's a lot better than everything else we've tried.
There isn't something magic in people that suddenly changes them to angels, if we'd only make some deep, profound realization. That's some of the oldest ideological snake oil there is. It's no more valid now in 2019 than when stone buildings were the technological marvel of the day and mythologies were the best societal and epistemological proposals going around. The best we have ever done is a set of rules that keeps individual people from being treated unfairly like garbage and acts to disperse power.
These are nothing more than rich randians complaining about their tax bracket.
Everyone is "nothing more" than _insert reductive term here_. History shall judge them by their works.
Fair enough, but do they have a navy? A few months (years?) back, there was a "territorial dispute" between seasteaders and a South East Asian state - Singapore IIRC; the side with the tax-funded, floating gun platforms won.
https://www.salon.com/2014/09/16/ayn_rands_capitalist_paradi...
If you find a straightforward loophole in software, the computer running it will e.g. happily hand you information you're not supposed to have[1]. If you find that kind of loophole in the law, then the humans running it will usually just tell you to go home. They know that you know what they meant.
Laws can still have loopholes, but they are generally more subtle and complicated. Fixing them often has obvious unintended consequences. They're more like speculative execution bugs[2] than buffer overruns.
[1]- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heartbleed
[2]- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spectre_(security_vulnerabilit...
It might be two guys with guns, or it might be a huge bureaucracy that runs on the rule of law or anywhere in between.
But it's always there.
As soon as one person's actions can affect another person a system arises for resolving their inevitable conflicts and facilitating cooperation if required. What do you call that system? Many would call that "government." That does seem appropriate if the definition of government is:
> the political system by which a country or a community is administered and regulated.
Of course, "government" as manifested in multi-million person nations is significantly evolved from it's abstract underpinnings both etymologically and philosophically. Same is true of the notions of political, community, administered, and regulated. But all that evolution (both its pros and cons) falls out logically from the foundational relationship of two beings with agency trying to figure out how and if to restrain that agency when it conflicts with the other's.
EDIT: I see from a sibling you're referring to "Anarchism." That doesn't free anyone for the reality of government it just changes where the restraining lines get drawn. In practice, the lines predictably get drawn in favor of the powerful just as they do in more mainstream systems of government.
You forgot to mention that in that case it's just one guy with the only gun
Likewise, while starting a country is plausibly a moral good, enabling that is not the purpose of maritime treaties. Countries refuse to recognize other terrestrial countries all the time, even if they have clear borders and obviously-powerful governments internally (e.g. PRC and ROC each refusing to recognize the other, most of the middle east not recognizing Israel). Putting your country on a boat doesn't somehow increase your legitimacy before the international community.
Neither is preventing it. So why is it a 'loophole'. (leaving aside the issue that it would be very hard to justify the legitimacy of such a law)
Says who? this is an arbitrary interpretation.
Further, there is obviously no law about how and where to create a new country, as the UN by definition will defend the status quo as a union of sovereign nations. Most countries emerged violently and illegally in their beginning, and got recognized later (including the US).
The mojave is in the middle of what the world recognizes as a sovereign state, it would be a much more difficult starter and impossible to find allies.
> Says who? this is an arbitrary interpretation.
> Further, there is obviously no law about how and where to create a new country, as the UN by definition will defend the status quo as a union of sovereign nations. Most countries emerged violently and illegally in their beginning, and got recognized later (including the US).
> The mojave is in the middle of what the world recognizes as a sovereign state, it would be a much more difficult starter and impossible to find allies.
I think what amalcom is getting at, is that maritime law does not offer any protection to aspiring nation states. It is in place solely to allow free travel. That same free travel would allow another sovereign who happens upon your budding nation state to take it with impunity (unless the state is prepared for armed conflict with another, more established (and probably more populated and wealthy) state).
> An international group of bankers, lawyers and stockbrokers - reportedly with links to the City of London - appears to have fiddled the tax system, employing practices which were at best unethical, at worst illegal.
> With a bit of imaginative paperwork, and by exploiting a procedure which allows more than one person or institution to simultaneously own a share, they were able to claim numerous tax refunds. The practice was outlawed in 2012.
In my (incomplete) understanding this was a vulnerability in the law that has not been patched until 2012 when it had already been exploited for a while. It wasn't just tax avoidance but extracting money from treasuries, so it should be blatantly obvious that this was not the intent of the lawmaker.
> In the first type, German banks and stockbrokers bought and sold shares for foreign investors in a way which allowed them to claim a tax refund for which they were not eligible. Many question the legality of the practice.
This is more "nobody noticed they were doing it" than "it was obviously happening, and the government shrugged its shoulders." Obviously, unlike a computer, it is quite possible for humans to just not notice that you're doing an illegal thing.
> In the second (a more complicated variation), investors and banks bought and sold shares just before and just after dividends were paid. With a bit of imaginative paperwork, and by exploiting a procedure which allows more than one person or institution to simultaneously own a share, they were able to claim numerous tax refunds. The practice was outlawed in 2012.
This is a subtle loophole, which probably did not admit an easy patch without serious unintended consequences (the category for which I used Spectre as an example).
That sounds exactly like a zero-day bug of the sort that caused e.g. Heartbleed and Shellshock.
A GAAR (which lots of countries have these days) goes roughly like this:
If you do something that only makes sense because it reduces your liability to taxation, that doesn't work, and tax is due as if you hadn't done it.
The UK's version uses a "double reasonableness" test, which tells a jury that the way to assess the rule is not just to decide whether they, ostensibly reasonable people, think the accused did something that makes no sense except to avoid tax, but that they should imagine whether _any_ hypothetical reasonable person could have thought it was reasonable to do this. That's a deliberately high bar for the tax authorities.
I don't think having an Irish subsidiary with four employees that supposedly sells all your products produced in China under direction of staff mostly based in Swindon seems reasonable if not for the tax benefit, but somebody else might reasonably think so, and so I concede that a "double reasonableness" test would allow you to keep claiming the tax benefits of doing that.
On the other hand, if you pay hardly any taxes because you claim to be a "second hand car dealer" but it turns out you never saw any of these cars you were supposedly dealing in, know nothing about cars, and had arranged in advance for the cars to be bought and sold at a calculated loss so as to avoid taxation, now I struggle to imagine how any reasonable person could not see that for what it is, and so (sure enough) real celebrities who tried such a scheme ended up having to pay their taxes (and for the lawyers they'd hired to try to argue this was fine).
Another fun element of GAAR is to require people who sell avoidance schemes to tell you about them. The requirement goes like this. If you sell somebody a tax avoidance scheme that doesn't work you're in hot water _unless_ you told the tax authorities about this scheme first. This way the authorities know what's coming, and the people who dream up schemes keep their income, the only downside is if you're a grifter hoping to avoid taxes it might be less likely to work now. Boo hoo.
That's probably false. It's enough to make sure entities holding shares can never set up a system to avoid paying taxes on them. And in any case holding shares can not result in net gain (so no tax credit can result from holding shares).
The law always can be amended and further complicated, even in inconsistent ways! And let courts sort it out. (And then fix it again, and repeat.)
"When an Island or Peninsula breaks free from a larger country and creates its own legal structure, dramatic increases in prosperity often occur within 1 generation.
Under British rule Hong Kong habour was little more than a dockyard for the Royal Navy. Now thanks to modern trade rules and numerous land reclamation projects, the skyline features an abundance of skyscrapers."
That's just dishonest. Firstly, Hong Kong was not just a dockyard for the British Navy in 1997, it was already an incredibly rich place, with many skyscrapers and huge amounts of autonomy. Try googling a photo of Hong Kong in 1997. Secondly, it is has not broken free from a larger country, it was returned from the British Empire to Chinese control.
"Before World War 2, rickshaws were the primary form of transport in Singapore. Now there is a vast public transport infrastructure, including high speed rail networks and expressways."
Okay, what a funky timeline. Before WW2 Singapore was very poor! Along with basically everyone else in that region. It gained independence in 1959, but let's not talk about what happened in between!
None of the examples they give seem to offer anything other than "Pro tip: Be a tax haven". Singapore, Mauritius, Hong Kong? Notice what these places have in common? Like Jesus Christ guys could you not find a single example of a country whose independence made it wealthy without being a straight up tax haven for the surrounding larger countries?
https://www.theepochtimes.com/thai-navy-dismantles-floating-...
Not a lawyer, but there was an era where citizens lived in US territories.
That doesn't seem right - why don't refugees, who appear to already be attempting to boat across large swaths of water, simply fly the US flag then?
I assume you'd need to be a citizen beforehand, right?
Citizens still live in US territories. Also, there are places in the United States where birth does not confer US citizenship [0].
I do think that setting out to build a "city" is not the way forward. Early experiments in deep-water aquaculture have been very profitable. Expand on that, and settlement will happen organically.
Ecologically and economically sustainable underwater 3D farms.
Another good book on the topic is Tim Flannery's Sunlight and Seaweed.
[edit since i m blocked from replying]:
- US is unique in taxing worldwide income. I would assume the colonists would renounce any other citizenship anyway, and the colony does not have taxes.
- They could not move any financial assets or to the colony unless it is somehow recognized internationally. There is no way to evade taxes.
- The only possible way to tranfer assets is to convert them to cryptocurrency , which presumably would only be useful in the colony. And there 's probably not going to be a way to move large sums of money out of the colony, unless international banks agree to cooperate with it.
[and a tangent]
It's "interesting" to contrast the reactions of HN 2019 compared to 10 years ago: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=194028
Alas, "Nowhere Land" may figure at one point that they need to generate income for basic maintenence and other necessary expenses. Basic maintenance, which can be very, very costly out at sea.
https://www.irs.gov/individuals/international-taxpayers/taxp...
It's based on property rights and the non aggression principle.
In other words: bigger guns
Basically as it is now but instead of the law and tax being collected based on location, you get to freely choose what law(s)-enforcement you want to be under.
Until someone under a different LE company accuses of a crime. Then you'll be subject to their process (unless, of course, your LE company has more guns).
why would you ever agree then? Well maybe because they have an agreement with your LE company and you'd find yourself dropped as a client if you didn't or you both use the same insurance company and they'd jack up your rates if you didn't. More extremely you might be fired and become unhireable as a liability and unless you already have sufficient arable land to subsistence farm you will die of starvation or be shot for trespassing (initiating force) on the sidewalk that you can no longer pay for the use of.
Don't take this as me thinking it is at all a workable scheme also I'm definitely not AnCap and I don't hang out in their circles so this kinda just the low-nuance version that I've picked up via osmosis.
The last arguments of kings are still guns.
The end state of all theoretical non-aggressive libertarian societies is that they are conquered through force by some form of cartel. In my opinion, seasteading, which is predicated on mutual non-aggression for prosperity, is strictly inferior to hiring a bunch of ex-CIA and ex-GRU contractors to destabilize and take over a pre-existing dictatorial country, and then rewrite its laws from scratch. The moral high ground loses to boots on the ground, every time.
If you can't or won't preemptively attack and annex another country's territory, you're better off trying to colonize space, where nation-states can't reach you as easily, or start by building the nuclear warheads, and then build the floating cities. The veneer of civilization is thin, and one gun is no longer sufficient for one man to defend his castle.
Obligatory Blockchain woo preemption:
"The agent's model of what you are interested in would always be a cartoon, and in return you will see a cartoon version of the world through the agents eyes" - Jaron Lanier
Anarchism was overwhelmingly a socialist movement, contemporary with Marxism and communism. Many anarchists debated the ideal forms of socialism vigorously at congresses held by groups like the First International. Historically, Marxism and communism won the most mindshare, with rare exceptions like the Spanish Civil War.
Leading 19th c. anarchist thinkers, like Bakunin and Kropotkin, would have laughed you out of the room if you had claimed anarchism was in any way not a leftist movement.
This conception is from a much later argument of economist Murray Rothbard from the mid-20th c., and owes more to the Austrian school of economics then any strain of anarchist thinking. Rothbard drew upon some individualist anarchist writers, but tossed out all the economic parts he disagreed with, and called it anarcho-capitalism. Claiming anarcho-capitalism as a form of anarchism reveals a complete misreading of, or disdain for, the overwhelming majority of anarchist thought.
Now for an interesting follow-up: the term "libertarian" underwent the same change in America, but even more thoroughly, to the point that only historians recall its leftist origins. (Outside America, "libertarian" is more synonymous with anarchism.)
To quote Rothbard above: "One gratifying aspect of our rise to some prominence is that, for the first time in my memory, we, 'our side,' had captured a crucial word from the enemy... 'Libertarians'... had long been simply a polite word for left-wing anarchists, that is for anti-private property anarchists, either of the communist or syndicalist variety. But now we had taken it over..."
Anarcho-capitalism is not a type of the former, but it is a type of the later.
https://www.reddit.com/r/Anarcho_Capitalism/comments/3ucp8y/...
The whole debate feels like a fruitless exercise to reclaim territory that is long lost.
relevant subreddit:
I'd call myself an "anarcho-pragmatist" now. That's based on not wasting breath or effort on stuff that's almost guaranteed not to work. My current recommendations to like-minded individuals are to support labor unions (or invent some other institution that counters plutocratic trends), and to oppose consolidation of broadcast media. I have long ago abandoned the non-aggression principle as being too dependent on people arguing over the meaning of "aggression".
Anarcho-communism is contrasted by anarcho-syndicalism, which argued for unions/industries being the organizing principle rather than communes/towns.
If your worry is that an existing government will allow some rich people to register as living on seastead and not pay taxes, then this doesn't have anything to do with seastead, and is only a failure of the government. If US allowed such a scheme there would not be any need to build a seastead, any corrupt government in any small country would be happy to provide all that is needed for a fraction of the cost.
On the other hand very similar thing is already happening in places like Russia where families of many government officials live in US and Europe using the money stolen back in home. (One city mayor even got a US green card requiring to live half of the year in the US, at the same time keeping his post and giving speeches on how bad is USA).
> because there are whole lot of background, foundational services that they provide the people seem to like to pretend simply appear out of thin air.
That is because the services that governments provide are bundled, which makes it hard for people to see what is the foundational service they are paying for and which is something that no one wants but has to buy because some bureaucrat 50 years ago managed to pass a law. Experiments with seastead governments would help to make the bundles more explicit.
Sovereign autonomy is not determined by oneself. It is determined by others, specifically by recognizing the sovereignty. Without recognition, it's basically impossible to conduct any type of transaction with the outer world, for lack of jurisdiction.
If you could hire a private army, or maybe an army of pirates, Seasteading would work. But you have to pay them. Conquerors often paid armies by charging taxes to the lands they conquered, placing them in debt. The solders who were injured and missing arms/legs got their reward by collecting taxes and maintaining the taken land.
The book Debt: The First 5,000 Years, goes into this concept in great detail. Another book in this genre is The Dictators Handbook.
https://www.newsweek.com/how-russias-fsb-colonized-abkhazia-...
A game of Monopoly will turn the most affable man violent (you probably meant the monopoly on violence).
We are certainly not beyond having another major, cataclysmic war.
If (say) Tibet declared independence, there is absolutely no chance that China would nuke it. They would simply send in a whole lot of tanks and people with guns.
In fact, some sovereign nations lived for thousands of years without even being known to the outside world.
It’s nice to have though.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoenix_Foundation
> Part of a reef, normally a metre below sea level at high tide, was piled high with sand and a small stone platform was erected carrying the flag of the Republic of Minerva—a white torch on a blue background. The 'President of Minerva,' Morris Davis, declared at the time: "People will be free to do as they damn well please. Nothing will be illegal so long it does not infringe on the rights of others. If a citizen wishes to open a tavern, set up gambling or make pornographic films, the government will not interfere." Tonga’s claim to the reef was recognized by the South Pacific Forum in September 1972. A Tongan expedition was sent to enforce the claim, arriving on 18 June 1972. The Flag of the Tonga was raised on 19 June 1972 on North Minerva and on South Minerva on 21 June 1972.
> Elwartowski and Thepdet's seastead was part of an experiment led by the Seasteading Institute, a group backed by Peter Thiel, the Silicon Valley billionaire behind PayPal.
> The floating home of Chad Elwartowski and his girlfriend, Supranee Thepdet, was towed ashore by Thai authorities on Monday to be taken apart, and the couple have been accused of violating Thailand's sovereignty, an offense that can carry the death penalty or life in prison, Sky News reported.
http://web.archive.org/web/20050602082455/http://www.havenco...
https://www.worldcrunch.com/culture-society/the-curious-case...
I haven't thought of a witty way to phrase the problem; "a utopia in search of a social movement", maybe?
It's really fun to design your new utopian community: the principles, the laws, the layout of the streets in the city (or the ships, in this case). But this is precisely backwards. You aren't playing SimCity, or SimSeastead. You can't just build (or make blueprints for) your ideal city, then summon a hoard of obedient minion-citizens to build it and inhabit it and behave in the way you have dictated.
The social movement has to come first: you need a large group of people, with similar aims and goals, working together, making decisions and plans a group. Then maybe you build a city. Or a commune. Or a co-op. Or who knows; the group may end up with other needs that you didn't anticipate.
Hypothetically you could build your community around your utopian vision, but why should they flock to you? All you've got is an idea. I've got some ideas, and so has every other person who might hypothetically be interested in joining your community. Why should I join you on your seastead instead of you joining me in my mountain enclave, or my seastead in a different ocean, or exactly like your seastead started out, except it's my seastead, I make the decisions?
Start by building a community, a movement. Or stick to writing fiction and playing the Sims.
Is there any more news on this?
> On March 3, 2018, a mayor from French Polynesia said the agreement was "not a legal document" and had expired at the end of 2017 in response to a challenger trying to make it an issue for the May, 2018 elections.
What kind of waves/storms can these structures deal with?
Seasteads would mostly use aquaculture, so you don't need much growing room on the ship. If you're close to a shipping lane you can trade for other foods you want, just like everybody else does.
The last thing you want happening in a storm is to lose power. Without power you can't angle yourself perpendicular to the waves. When that happens, broadside waves make the ship bob like a corkscrew. If you don't capsize, this makes the situation beyond recovery.
Waves tend to make large ships lose power easily because the engine oil sloshes in the pan, or the sump pit. The oil pump or inlet is located in a fixed place and can't be moved around. We're talking large engines here. Anyhow, the pump can't keep up with the flow due to this sloshing effectively cycling its flow rate and the engine starts overheating and it has to be throttled down then later shut off so it doesn't seize up. Once the engine is shut off and the vessel is no longer under command, the sloshing gets worse. Emergency battery power drains quickly. Meanwhile the fuel - bunker oil - cools off and turns into asphalt - it needs to be heated up to 120+ degrees F to be usable.
Even if you don't shut the engine off, in stormy weather the fuel filters get clogged up faster and have to be constantly cleaned. The fuel itself, bunker oil, is chunky to begin with and the additional sloshing somehow gunks up the filters faster. In one famous case, the engineers had to do it every few minutes in a storm and that required complete enclosure disassembly and reassembly. That particular ship survived that storm, but not another.
I didn't realise this kind of malfunction of the oil pump was common. I thought it was particular to the design of the pump on that vessel.
Remember few months ago when the Norwegian Cruise ship lost power and 1,300 passengers had to be evacuated by helicopter? That wasn't the only disabled ship in the area due to the storm. Once NTSB releases a report, you might see this as a cause, fuel sloshing. Large ships are just not designed or meant to be in waves and it's not economical to design them to be. So you check weather far in advance and steer clear of it.
El Faro's master looked at an old weather report regularly delayed by 12-18 hours or some such due to additional processing from BVS (his preferred software for checking weather) and didn't cross-check it with another source like NWS throughout the days, despite being challenged by the crew. He ended up steering the ship right into the eye of a hurricane.
>> He ended up steering the ship right into the eye of a hurricane.
I know. I've read the NTSB report. And the bridge transcript. Most harrowing thing I've ever read.
I got the feeling though that there was fault with the land crew who tied down the cars in the holds inappropriately. If I remember correctly, first there was water in the holds, possibly from a burst pipe hit by a car moving about freely; then the cars started slipping around on the wet floor; then they started listing to port; then the oil pump gave up; then the captain turned his port to the wind to counter the list; then they lost power; and by that time they were in the eye wall of the hurricane and they were lost. Perhaps, if it hadn't been an old ship and if the cargo had been secured properly, we wouldn't know there ever was a ship with that name. Despite the captain's mistakes.
Like you said think it was a number of factors, but I think the other ones only compounded the situation after the master committed the ship to the float plan. He looked at an outdated weather report, didn't know the software options to plot the up-to-date hurricane overlay, company didn't permit any of the crew to have access to the ship's satellite phone (and presumably internet access that came with it) for a double check, then he dismissed a confrontation about the conflicting NWS report from the 2nd mate, then delayed pulling up updated information from his lagging weather report and went to sleep.
The design of the ship played a factor too. It was a retrofitted RO/RO ship with waived safeties, and had ventilation hatches that apparently lowered the de-facto lowest-point-of-water-ingress (forgot the actual parameter name) underneath the unsecured hatches, which were - unsecured. Or unreliable. New engineer started doing maintenance mid-storm, lowering the engine's power output, and I think the loose cargo became a factor afterwards.
[0] https://ocean.builders/wp-content/uploads/2018/10/spar.png
So when they go outside the jurisdiction (and protection) of a nation-state and their law enforcement, the first question that comes to my mind is: what about piracy?
And as a matter of fact, they have a youtube channel "tough questions" talking about that (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6PLUZ9bzUGY) - tldr: it's gonna be private security firms, so it's not gonna be cheap ... and they claim only 2% of world's oceans are even considered piracy waters, but I think that's going to change as soon as there are wealthy communities floating in unprotected waters ...
One could say that police and military are not cheap either
...
It takes a bay of some kind to do this semi-safely, but you won't find those 12 miles out from continents and if you do (basically reef atolls) they're almost certainly claimed by a government or very, very far away from civilization, and completely incapable of sustaining life in a way most people would want to live.
https://fee.org/articles/the-world-s-first-seasteaders-are-n...
Summary: they'll use a "urine diverting dry toilet" to collect the feces- which supposedly will be used for fertilizer.
They don't say what exactly will be done with the urine, so likely dumped back into the ocean.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gd2FCpU5wu8&list=PLDgJp6DTkM...
I don't think, for example, that cruise ships are allowed to dump their shit (and other refuse) into the sea, provided they're in international waters.
Thank you
"Carnival Corporation ships illegally dumped more than 500,000 gallons of treated sewage, 12 gallons of oil, 11,000 gallons of food waste & dozens of physical objects into the ocean during its first year on probation (4/17-4/18)."
That reporter's summary came from her tweet: https://twitter.com/taydolven/status/1118233060569493504
The full story: https://www.miamiherald.com/news/business/tourism-cruises/ar...
She published her data: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1ERS2c_Kn4m9Ov4DfmzTh...
The large list of incidents have inane stuff, some human stuff, some funny stuff and some ironic stuff all mixed in with very serious stuff. You have to pick through a lot of entries and text to make sense of it.
Empathic: "While the ship was alongside in Mahogany Bay, Isla Roatan, a passenger accidentally dropped her purse into the sea from the pier. The MARPOL Annex V violation was reported to the port authority."
Funny? Inane? They had to file a report anyway: "During loading of provisions in Galveston, Texas, a shore side worker placed a pallet of watermelons on the ship's platform. Due to the pallet not being correctly positioned on the platform, the pallet tilted causing a number of watermelons to fall. All the watermelons were recovered from the netting placed below the ship's loading platform."
Ironic: "While alongside in Galveston, Texas, as a passenger was boarding the ship, he dropped his paper boarding pass, which was blown overboard and into the water in violation of MARPOL Annex V. The Harbor Master was informed by the ship's local agent. No additional actions were requested."
Serious: "Approximately 467 cubic meters of treated black water/sewage and 6.2 cubic meters of comminuted food waste was discharged inside Bahamian Archipelagic Baseline between June 13, 2017, and June 15, 2017, due to misinterpretation of Bahamas baselines listed in ENV 1001."
That's about 120,000 gallons.
What happens if there becomes resource exhaustion and similar problems? How would the safety of the inhabitants be ensured in events like that?
> Obsolete political systems conceived in previous centuries are ill-equipped to unleash the enormous opportunities in twenty-first century innovation.
I wonder if woman's suffrage is included in his thoughts on obsolete political systems?
> The 1920s were the last decade in American history during which one could be genuinely optimistic about politics. Since 1920, the vast increase in welfare beneficiaries and the extension of the franchise to women — two constituencies that are notoriously tough for libertarians — have rendered the notion of "capitalist democracy" into an oxymoron