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Comment by stevespang | Hacker News Reader

Not only banned flourocarbons, China and Asia are the main source of plastics entering the oceans through their rivers.

Some are calling for environmental mercenaries, like Earth First! or GreenPeace, who will reek havoc on those who pollute or endanger the planet, ourselves included.

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As much as I hate to see the environment getting destroyed, eco-terrorism is not the way forwards.

Every normal person is empowered to help: purchase from people whose ideals you agree with, win the hearts and minds of those around you, re-use everything you safely can.

And perhaps there should be tariffs on Chinese goods to prevent them from dumping poisonous products on the market.

Some of these things like lead and cadmium in children's pencil cases made me wonder if this was intentional.

A lot of it certainly isn't making Chinese manufacturing management lose sleep.

> And perhaps there should be tariffs on Chinese goods

Someone other than Trump will have to do it though, otherwise the motives are all wrong

If the results are positive, the motives won't matter.

So how do you propose we deal with psychopaths that dump radioactive waste into steel that then goes into your napkin box?

Ask them nicely again?

Bans. Sanctions. Diplomatic action. Force their government to crack down on them.

Terrorism is basically narcissistic. It never, ever helps anything, but it feels so good to lash out at bad people, so you convince yourself that you're a hero when all you're really doing is turning people against your cause.

Apparently, returning fire in an economic war is wrong. It's terrorism according to you.

Shipping radioactive waste into your house - not terrorism, according to you.

Nobody will be against punishing people for allowing willfully contaminating products and then decieving you about their safety.

Just to be clear, we're talking about killing people, yeah? "Environmental mercenaries...who will reek havoc on those who pollute or endanger the planet," as stevespang put it. That is, literally, terrorism, even if the goal is laudable. Knowingly selling toxic, deadly products out of greed is a horrible thing, but it is literally not terrorism.

You seem to think that "terrorism" means "anything dangerous that bad guys do."

> Nobody will be against punishing people for allowing willfully contaminating products and then decieving you about their safety.

Absolutely not true. When you turn to terrorism, you lose the moral high ground in the eyes of most of the international community. It's so easy to spin that against you to discredit your entire cause; to convince people who might have been sympathetic that you're just a violent psychopath after all.

Do these bastards deserve to die? Maybe. I wouldn't shed a single tear if they were killed. That doesn't mean it's a good way to achieve your goal, if your goal is long-term change instead of short-term vengeance.

How much choice do you really have if literally all of your choices are from China?

We can bring about political change which makes these practices financially non-profitable. Simply use regulation to price them out of the market.

I agree we can and should do what we can to prevent the worst outcomes and labeling direct nonviolent action as terrorism is a bit much / counterproductive

I think it's certainly borderline either way [1]. The point at which you're using relatively extreme criminal actions to scare people into considering your political agenda, you become a form of terrorist (in this case an eco-terrorist).

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eco-terrorism

How's that been working out for the last 40 years?

Do you really think that governments have been actively working on this for 40 years? Other than the occasional signalling, there's not been trade sanction or tariffs.

The EPA was founded in 1972.

Greenpeace etc have their hearts in the right place... sabotage though doesn’t help. Japan pays lip service and mostly ignores them. China will not take kindly to any interference. I can’t see them even trying.

If people won't respond to reason, should they be reasoned with? The danger of ego and the id.

Yet still the danger grows nearer.

how does Japan pay lip service? I can only see that in terms of whaling, otherwise they seem to be a fairly clean country? Please point to more information.

I’m only speaking to the interaction between Greenpeace and Japan, which is mostly concerning whaling. Japan kind of reluctantly puts up with their behavior. China won’t. They have near zero chance of making any impact in China.

Perhaps a Greenpeace ship needs to be attacked by Chinese on live TV in order to gain momentum?

We need eco-martyrs too.

It won’t affect them just like when Russia poisons defectors abroad on foreign soil. Lots of noise and complaining but nothing can come of it. They’re too big.

Not just too big, they are outside of the US sphere of influence, while Japan is a client state really.

We should still shame reprehensible behavior.

Oh god, I’d love to see some environmental mercenaries go after China. Look at how they treat their own Muslim citizens! You think they’d hesitate to lock up/beat/kill them?

Yet lawmakers want to take away my plastic straws. Sad.

Every revolution starts small. Just because it's a baby step doesn't mean we shouldn't take it to move forward.

Which are probably made in China.

They're also recycled* in China.

*: In this context recycled means shipped to China and then dumped into the ocean.

Is that actually what happens to our recycling? I was just wondering today how all this plastic gets repurposed. Does it get shipped overseas then dumped?

Some plastic is used to make polyester clothing, but the latter can't be recycled any further. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zyF9MxlcItw

so what happens to that? burned?

Which is why it's better to have cellulose/paper straws.

Paper/cellulose straws are inferior and maddening to use. Yes, I need to use a straw.

There are reusable silicone, glass, metal, etc straws if you absolutely must use a straw.

I used to have a collapsible silicone cup. Downvote me for that too.

I drink a milkshake. I must now clean a reusable straw. I have to deal with a sticky mess. That's more than I want, particularly when the alternative is pitching said sticky mess.

One of the best things about eating out is that there is no clean-up.

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