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Comment by cmuguythrow | Hacker News Reader

Anecdote from when I was in China. My friend and I were walking down the street in Jinan (a big city though not one of the Major Chinese cities - think Pittsburgh in the US) when a yellow Ferrari fishtailed around the corner, squealing its tires and speeding away down the street. My immediate reaction - which I imagine to be the average American reaction - was "what an asshole". However, the Chinese around us on the street had quite a different reaction: "wow what a cool guy/car". Not really sure what this means about the perceptions of displays of status between the two cultures, but it's something that has stuck with me ever since.

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Reminds me of

3. Rich man in the car paradox.

When you see someone driving a nice car, you rarely think, “Wow, the guy driving that car is cool.” Instead, you think, “Wow, if I had that car people would think I’m cool.” Subconscious or not, this is how people think.

The paradox of wealth is that people tend to want it to signal to others that they should be liked and admired. But in reality those other people bypass admiring you, not because they don’t think wealth is admirable, but because they use your wealth solely as a benchmark for their own desire to be liked and admired.

http://www.collaborativefund.com/blog/the-psychology-of-mone...

Anecdotal, but I don't think I've ever thought anything specific about the owners of cars I think are cool. If I see someone driving a nice car, I think "That's a nice car".

My first thought is normally, "Jeeze, all that money for a tool that gets you from one place to another?"

To me, a car is more than a utility. It's a source of entertainment.

is your main computer also a $200 chromebook?

Ha, not quite. My main computer at home is actually an almost-10 year old Macbook Air -- and I'll run that thing until I have to bury it. (I don't do much serious work at home these days.) I've flirted with upgrading, but the only reason is it won't run current Docker and that will eventually bug me enough to pull the trigger, but not this week!

Work is a totally different story, but not bought by me, and also spec'd to utility, not extravagance.

until recently mine was a $70 i5 compaq elite (w/ssd and ram and vidya). And yes, I do drive a 25 year old $1000 car on the daily (only upgrade was a tow hitch), jealous?

it seems like you're happy with the price you paid for the stuff you got. that's great!

I know I wrote my comment in a "haha gotcha" style but my main point is that most people with disposable income have areas where they splurge, and areas where they save. maybe it's not the car or the computer, but I bet you own at least one item that your peers would think you spent too much money on.

instead of shitting on people who spend money on stuff we don't personally value, or imply they only did it to show off how rich they are, why not just assume they bought it because they enjoy it?

I'm not trying to shit on anyone, just lucky to live in an area of abundance where $200 can go a very long way if you do your homework and don't internalize status/marketing expectations.

Indeed if it weren't for people pursuing the new shiny, I'd have to pay at least 10x for the same utility. But as it is I'm glad to re-purpose/reuse. I have no delusions that I'm not a scavenger in this economic realm. Though I do appreciate a solid "grandpa" car that seats 6 and can tow a few thousand pounds and can still get 30mpg on the highway.

Few hundred thousand dollar difference between a nice car and a nice computer.

Not remotely. You can buy a truly fast car-- 200mph fast-- for under $20,000 pretty easily. If you're willing to wrench on it you can get sub-4 seconds to 60 for under $15,000. That kind of performance would have been supercar territory not too long ago, and would certainly count as nice cars today. At below $100,000 I could name a dozen cars that offer a combination of great looks and incredible performance.

debatem1 uses Arch, btw.

Pardon? I'm not clear on why I'm being downvoted, and I don't use arch, and I don't see why that would be relevant.

Arch Linux is popular with users who will endure some discomfort and manual work to get a powerful and satisfying experience. I thought it would be funny to baselessly assert a connection.

Gentoo would have been an even better analogy.

Welllll I did run Gentoo some years ago, so... not that baseless :). But you really don't have to work hard to get a quite nice (but not world-beating) car for $20k.

You are being downvoted because nice != fast so it comes off as a bit off topic.

My original comment was pointing out the disparity between a nice car and a nice laptop. Even a 20k car is at least 5x the cost of a top of the line laptop.

Ok. Your claim was a few hundred thousand dollar difference; I suppose we could quibble about what constitutes a nice car, but >$100,000 buys you a Z-06 or a Jaguar XJ. It's quite the exaggeration, unless your tastes run very extreme. To which I say: the only nice computer is a Cray :).

To get to 200 mph, you're probably gonna need about 600 horsepower, give or take depending on aerodynamics. How are you finding 600 horsepower for under $20K?

A Mercedes SL55 AMG sans limiter will hit 200mph at roughly 500HP, and it's pretty easy to pick one of the 2007s with the fixed top for around $20k. If you go down to the 2003s you have plenty of options going down into the $15k range and they're almost as fast. They're also, to my eyes, pretty good looking and very comfortable-- although I'm pretty sure I wouldn't want to go around any sharp corners at those speeds.

You can also get a similar era V10 M5 or M6 for about the same cash and those will go like crazy. Again, to my eyes, good looking cars.

If you're patient and haggle well you can probably pick up a viper SRT-10, although you might be waiting a while; I see some around $24k but no lower without salvage titles.

I could go on, but you get my point. There are a ton of cars out there that really are pretty incredible for not a lot of money.

> A Mercedes SL55 AMG sans limiter will hit 200mph at roughly 500HP, and it's pretty easy to pick one of the 2007s with the fixed top for around $20k.

Huh, you're right. Actually, more than right. If I don't mind travelling across the country, I can get a 2005 SL55 AMG for $7,500. That car was 6 figures at release, though. That's a LOT of value to lose!

> They're also, to my eyes, pretty good looking

I will disagree there. I think they look boring as all hell. Obviously, this is entirely subjective.

> There are a ton of cars out there that really are pretty incredible for not a lot of money.

I might dispute "incredible" here, for two reasons. First, surprisingly cheap high-performance cars are so frequently from luxury brands that don't consider long-term reliability to be luxury features. Also, despite the SL55 AMG being able to hit 200 MPH, it weighs more than most SUVs, and so has a pitiful 0-60 time of 4.5 seconds. I admit I'm moving the goal posts a bit here, but quick acceleration is more important to me than top speed. I can't use 200 mph on my daily commute, but I can use a 0-60 speed on the on-ramp, or whenever I need to accelerate quickly to pass someone.

I mean, I guess I'm not sure where to go with this. You won't put down better than 4s to 60 daily driving any more than you would put down 200mph in the same circumstances, because you'll have a V10 roaring at you the whole time and literally everyone on the street will be sending hateful thoughts your way.

But if 0-60 is most important, I'd look at things like that SRT-10 (which makes it in 3.7s stock) or maybe even soup up a CTS-V, which can hit it in 3.3 with some work. Granted both of those, with modifications, will probably wind up closer to $25k than $20-- but who knows, you might get lucky.

Despite that, I maintain my original position: these are far, far beyond just being "nice" cars, and unless you can get a nice computer system for less than negative $80,000 there is no way to get such a system for even one hundred thousand dollars less than these cars, let alone several hundred thousand.

0-60 in 4.5 seconds is a really good time, especially in 2005. it only seems pitiful because street cars are ridiculously overpowered at the high end these days.

my hot hatch can do it in six seconds, and even that is a bit too much to use unless the road is wide open with no traffic.

I think “Idiot with a car loan”. As Dave Ramsey says, the auto loan is the scourge of the middle class.

Many people buy exotics as investments and loans end up smaller than the 'equity' in their 1960s ferrari, or even modern special edition lambo. Just because your kia is a quickly depreciating asset does not generalize to all cars.

Oh, I agree. I work with a guy who has his eye on a used Ferrari, and if he takes good care of it, it will hold or increase in value. He buys them at the bottom of the bathtub curve.

However, 99.9% of luxury cars are not exotics. You will rarely see them on the road as they depreciate too much if you drive them daily.

But it depends on the car! For example, if he's driving a lamborghini, meh. If he's driving an Aston Martin, cool :)

> “Wow, if I had that car people would think I’m cool.”

I would think "if I had that car, people may think I'm a bragging asshole, not sure I want that kind of attention".

Exactly. It's not the right time to abuse money like that. No one deserves such a car as long as children are still starving and people who create our goods can't even afford a cup of rice a day.

I couldn't look at myself in the mirror if I'd rather buy such an overpriced car then helping those in need.

A while ago, my wife and I were in the mood for dumplings so we headed to a nearby shopping center here in Southern California with a lot of Asian shops and restaurants and not enough parking spots. It's popular among locals and visiting tourists, including nouveau riche from mainland China.

It's a Sunday, it's lunch time, and it's packed. After going up and down a couple rows, I get lucky and see the reverse lights on a minivan light up just as I'm approaching the end of a crowded row. So I stop and wait.

While I'm waiting, I look in my rear-view mirror and notice this very new (no plates) white BMW aggressively weaving around other other cars stopped in the lane waiting for something to open up. Just as the spot clears, the white BMW races around me to take the spot. I'm stunned. I'm not a violent person nor even a particular strong person and haven't been in a fistfight since elementary school. But I'm ready for bloodshed. I lay on the horn.

A young handsome fashionably dressed Chinese guy wearing sunglasses exits the car on the driver's side. His attractive young fashionably dressed wife, also wearing sunglasses, gets out on the passenger side. She pulls out their young son, also well dressed and wearing sunglasses. Obliviously, they start walking toward the dumping joint where we're planning to eat.

I turn to my wife, incredulous: "Can you believe this? Did you see that asshole?" I'm not Chinese. My wife is.

"Asshole?" she replied. "In China, that guy would be a hero."

She didn't seem particularly upset by the turn of events. So I just laughed, put my vendetta in the hands of karma, and went in search of another parking spot.

Ouch man, ouch..... That isn't a good sign coming from your wife.

Same in India. Wealth is seen as a status symbol. The cultures value it, and whoever has more is considered to be high status.

Its not hard to see why though. In industrializing countries with a lot of income inequality, wealth is rare, and anyone who has that is seen as either getting it through hard work, or getting it via their parents' hard work.

BTW, Americans are hardly better, see all the yatches and private jets that corporate executives own.

>Its not hard to see why though. In industrializing countries with a lot of income inequality, wealth is rare, and anyone who has that is seen as either getting it through hard work, or getting it via their parents' hard work.

I see it more that in these societies, the difference in quality of life between being rich or poor can literally make the difference between living or dying. In those conditions, the first thing you probably care about when assessing a potential partner or friend is whether they have clean shelter and know where their next meal is coming from, so the signaling value of money is extremely high. Whether they have excellent taste in music is a long way down the list.

In most developed societies, the difference between being lower middle class or upper middle class is relatively minor, and gives people the luxury to consider conspicuous displays of wealth to be crass, and to choose partners based on more subtle characteristics, like their ability to write funny comments.

That definitely makes sense.

On a similar vein, wealth often also brings protection against the State which often abuses its own citizens (e.g. corrupt Government and police officers). This does happen in the US as well (e.g. violence against African Americans) but not to the same extent.

It brings protection in general. Protection against sickness, famine, servitude, and so on. The more present these threats are, the more valuable the signaling power of money becomes.

In a world where most people are infected by a zombie virus, it might become very important to be able to signal that you're not infected. In this world, the fact that I'm not infected by a zombie virus is literally one of the least interesting things about me and will rarely warrant even a passing mention.

Likewise, to me, your t-shirt that just says the word GUCCI in massive letters tells me that you have rich parents and no aesthetic sense. In other circumstances, to other people, it might signal that their quality of life could be improved many times over by being with this person.

The irony becomes that these signals of disposable wealth can be so coveted that in certain places, people's priorities will shift such that they'll sacrifice all areas of their lives, eat nothing but the cheapest instant noodles, and spend a year's savings on, say, a Louis Vuitton wallet which, sadly, they'll no longer have any money to put in.

We were in Rwanda recently to go gorilla trekking. We were told by our guide that in the villages the status symbol that shows you are a person of means is a bicycle.

Dude. You flew to another country to look at a bunch of animals. Your guide knows that your wealth is magnitudes more than his own.

He was lying to you to make you feel better so that you tip more.

I lived in Africa for 2 years, and both can be true at the same time.

Wow, and I thought I was a cynic.

No, he wasn't lying.

lol yatches really made me lol. I wish it weren't a typo and what we called pretentious people with yachts.

I've just came back from a road trip in the US, and what struck me compared to Europe is that people didn't have luxurious cars (apart from a bunch of asian kids cruising Yellowstone in obnoxious sport cars). Big SUV were commonplace, but I didn't see as many people showing off luxurious cars as I do in Europe. I don't really know if there is any truth from this subjective observation but it made me thinking. It goes against the common stereotype saying that it's totally fine to boast one's wealth in the US, whereas Europeans are more shy regarding money matters. This isn't my experience.

In Europe cars are very heavily subsidized by the government. In Belgium for instance it is very common to get payed part of your salary under the for of a car (replaced every 4 years) and fuel card, exempt from taxes both for the company as well as for the employee (the result of decades the automobile lobby being very close to the governments).

This results in significant more of German luxury cars, especially BMW, Mercedes and Audi, being quite common, as well as being the most jammed up country on the planet.

So while it looks like fancy flaunting, the BMW 5, Audi 6 or Mercedes E is very common will not turn many eyes here.

>In Europe cars are very heavily subsidized by the government.

Maybe this is true in Belgium, but how much is it true elsewhere?

> It goes against the common stereotype saying that it's totally fine to boast one's wealth in the US, whereas Europeans are more shy regarding money matters. This isn't my experience.

Up until the early 2000's, this was the case in the US.

If I had to pick a local reason for this, it's because rap music videos since the 90s featured brown people in obviously fancy cars, so obviously fancy cars equals nouveau riche or drug dealer.

And people love to correct others about their bags or shoes when others misidentify them as a more affordable imitation of an exclusion designer, and then get to tell them who and how much it cost and how it is so worth it for the "quality".

What? I’m sorry but, no. Also, car ownership depends on the region. In Los Angeles in many parts of the city you can’t throw a rock without hitting a Mercedes or BMW.

When it comes to wealth specifically, I've always noticed this about American culture.

They have this myth of the ultra rich everyday man, who despite their immense wealth and power, are just as relatable and humble as the rest of us. They wear blue jeans and you see them joking with the cashier, even though they could buy the supermarket chain.

In many other cultures that would be the epitome of hypocrisy. It's perceived as cheap and an outright lie. Being rich actually obligates you to look rich. It's expected. You can be kind, you can be generous, you can be helpful, but don't hide that you're rich.

Although it might be more pronounced in Asia, even in Europe the rich don't try as hard to be relatable as in America. Somehow Americans find displays of wealth almost offensive.

Another anecdote, my Russian, very Dutchified colleague and friend bought a very expensive and nice watch with many survival/hiking functions (compass, altitude meter etc.). The watch was unobtrusive and minimalistic (and black). We both though it was very functional and a sign of good taste and an eye for quality. His Russian family though did not understand how he could have spend that amount of money on a watch that was not "expensive looking".

I’m not so sure you have it right. If that happened to an American child or teenager they would think it was awesome. An adult would not be so amused especially if their child was standing there.

I’d think they were an asshole. BMW drivers are assholes, I know I used to drive one.

this study did show that BMW drivers (along with other luxury cars) are indeed assholes:

https://wheels.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/08/12/the-rich-drive-d...

I don't think your anecdote is reflective at all.

On Youtube, Daily Driven Exotics is one of the largest automotive channels and I would suppose you would consider all the antics you see on that channel to be quite obnoxious. Plenty of Americans consider everything they see of that channel as "wow what a cool guy/car".

Burning rubber to show off in a busy city, attracting attention from everyone, is different than a YouTube channel that caters to people who would seek out that content specifically. Of course people who watch car videos think “wow what a cool guy/car” more often than the general population.

If I thought I could get away with it I would lay rubber leaving every stop. It has nothing to do with what other people think and everything to do with me having fun.

>my immediate reaction - which I imagine to be the average American reaction - was "what an asshole". However, the Chinese around us on the street had quite a different reaction: "wow what a cool guy/car"

Is "good for him he's enjoying what his nice car has to offer" not an option?

By driving his car uncontrolled on a public way surrounded by people? Nope not an option. He's flaunting his wealth by putting other people at risk. That makes him an asshole. Just because you happen to like bullies and assholes didn't make that any less true. On a race track or deserted road? Maybe that's kind of fun and cool, you're generally only putting yourself at risk.

But that kind of dangerous behaviour is what any cool guy / protagonist does in pretty much every action (and not even just action) movie. And people don't usually see those characters as bullies or assholes.

The line between 'cool' and 'asshole' is very slim and depends on your assumptions about the individual in question, their character and motivations.

Yes, and actions movies are silly entertainment for teenagers. Hopefully adults don't actually think the tropes found in action movies should reflect the real society.

Possibly, but only if he were driving in a way that was respectful of other people's safety and well being. Driving recklessly is usually pretty heavily correlated with a disregard for others and a feeling of superiority/being above the rules.

I dislike the squealing tires thing neither.

Americans tend to regard anyone driving a Ferrari as an asshole, regardless of how they drive.

we tend to think anyone sliding around corners and squealing tires to be one as well. this driver wad doubling down.

Or struggling to drive their highly powerful car.

So you're suggesting we should let them off for being incompetent?

it was pretty obvious to me that is not at all what he was suggesting

> we tend to think anyone sliding around corners and squealing tires to be one as well

So why mention the type of car?

In America, it’s common knowledge that a driving a “cool” car will get you pulled over more for this reason. I wonder if it holds elsewhere.

Don't see many Ferrari's, but I can tell you a Prius driver is almost certainly an asshole. They are either Top Gear driving or Hypermiling, either way its at least a nuisance and sometimes a menace.

from my anecdotal experience, it seems like the brand of car that assholes drive is determined mainly by the median income of the locale. in poor areas, assholes drive shitty old hondas. in rich areas, they drive bmws and mercedes. in california, you are quite right; they drive priuses.

Am I interpreting this right as "assholes in an area drive the type of car that poor people in that area think rich people drive"?

I'm saying that there are assholes everywhere and they drive the car they can afford. the California part is kind of a joke, but also somewhat true in my experience.

Prius drivers followed by closely tesla 'drivers'.

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