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Comment by rayiner | Hacker News Reader

When we moved from Bangladesh to the US in the late 1980s, there were a couple of things that made us go “WTF?” One was the taste of chicken. In Bangladesh, you go buy a scrawny live chicken from the market and butcher it. It took me the better part of a year to be able to stomach American chicken, which tastes like wet cardboard in comparison. The other “WTF” thing was toilet paper. In Bangladesh, you rinse with water and soap after doing your business. The idea of just dry wiping was...

(To this day, whenever I go to Japan and sit on a bidet, I can’t help but think “ahh, civilization.”)

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As an Indian, I too had this WTF moment. It makes me wonder why paper is still used in the western world. Makes one wonder if there is a TP lobby out there ? We used to make jokes what if a TP user have diarrhea, how many trees will that be ?

If a bird shits on your hand will you use paper or water to clean it ? Its just that simple to comprehend. Just use water damn it. Cheap, hygienic, no left overs and green too !

I wouldn't consider anything clean just by spraying water on it either. It takes soap and some mechanical action. With that in mind I don't view wiping versus spraying as being much different than each other, im not trying to sterilize my ass so someone can eat a meal on it. In certain situations, water might be preferable or not, but 95% of the time I don't find one to be more or less sanitary, neither is truly "clean" from the start.

> If a bird shits on your hand will you use paper or water to clean it ? Its just that simple to comprehend. Just use water

I would use both soap and water. Do people just use water without soap?

>If a bird shits on your hand will you use paper or water to clean it ?

If I didn't also have soap, I'd use paper over water. Water might leave you visibly cleaner, but you'll spread microscopic poop particles and microbes over a much larger area.

I wouldn't say paper spread things around less. Paper and water is the way to go (absent soap), and that's what bidets are.

I would. You can use paper on a very small area. Water gets everywhere, often unnoticed.

In the vein of recommendations against washing poultry (it increases your risk for food poisoning), I'd put money on bidets being less sanitary.

> We used to make jokes what if a TP user have diarrhea, how many trees will that be ?

Diarrhoea is pretty much water, so it cleans up with paper very well.

> If a bird shits on your hand will you use paper or water to clean it ?

That's a misleading analogy. Do you eat off your butt? If I got bird poo on my bare foot, I'd wipe it off in the dirt and move on. Most people shower every few days anyway. I don't care how clean my butt is, just as long as it doesn't smell and it doesn't itch.

(FYI, in English, a space is only used after end-of-sentence punctuation, not before. I've never understood why Indians consistently get this wrong.)

>> If a bird shits on your hand will you use paper or water to clean it ?

>That's a misleading analogy. Do you eat off your butt? If I got bird poo on my bare foot, I'd wipe it off in the dirt and move on. Most people shower every few days anyway. I don't care how clean my butt is, just as long as it doesn't smell and it doesn't itch.

I think this hits at the root of the disagreement. If I get bird poo on my bare foot, I am totally washing that off with water - i am not comfortable wiping it off with paper and then tracking that onto my hand/clothes. To each their own. I believe it is harder to get your butt not to stink or itch when just using paper. I use water/soap when possible, and fallback to paper when not, usually public washrooms - so I’m familiar with both, if that needs saying.

> (FYI, in English, a space is only used after end-of-sentence punctuation, not before. I've never understood why Indians consistently get this wrong.)

Interesting generalization. I haven’t seen too many Indians do that. But as long as you get the point the OP was trying to make.

Disclaimer: Am Indian.

Here's my WTF moment. My grandmother told me, she was born in 1901 as a kid on a rural PA farm. They used pages from a Sears wish book or dried corn cobs,out at the old out house!

Exactly. The downfall of Sears began with indoor plumbing and high-gloss paper in their catalogs.

At least in northern Europe it was common to use a stick to scrape. "More civilized" city dwellers used old newspapers.

> green

Well, increased water consumption has a lot of ecological problems as well. Plus most of us westerners would probably balk at using cold water, so we'd waste a lot of energy heating it up too.

> Well, increased water consumption has a lot of ecological problems as well.

Well, using paper costs more water than using water itself. Also, the ecological problems of using paper is far worse than using water alone[0][1].

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Environmental_impact_of_paper

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toilet_paper#Environmental_con...

Water has a really high heat capacity, meaning that it takes a lot of energy to heat.

Intuitively, how much water do you think the toilet paper of one bathroom visit would heat, if usef as fuel? (Answer: much less than what you would use to replace TP)

How much energy is used to make TP and transport it to your local store?

Sure, there's that. Otoh the water will alo have a big energy footprint before heating in the avg municipal water service case. But these things don't really change the order of magnitude energy difference that exists in the setup.

I got curious and did a napkin calculation.

A sheet of TP weights 1.5 grams and you might generously use 10 sheets per visit. Assuming fuel properties of wood, that's 250 kJ of heat energy when burned. That's enough to heat only 1.5 kg of 10C mains water to body temperature.

There’s a lot of water and energy used turning trees into paper as well that this neglects.

Also just thinking about how much energy is in the TP doesn’t account for shipping it around at all.

I have no idea what the energy balance is, i just think this thread had vastly oversimplified.

Even the water volume may or may not be an issue. If you live somewhere that water is precious it’s a much different concern than if your location uses surface water that just ends up back in the same river downstream after a trip through your plumbing, for example.

Absolutely, I wouldn't call TP "green" either.

My bidet uses less water than it uses to flush, which in turn is less water than was used in creating the paper. If you need it heated, it doesn’t take a lot of energy to heat that small amount of water (as it doesn’t need to heat continuously, at most just when you sit down).

Water consumption is not an ecological problem everywhere.

It doesn't take much water

Water is not universally abundant though and much more costly to transport than paper or wood.

It's pretty abundant in developed countries that primarily rely on toilet papers, one would presume.

Water is a scarce resource in Australia, and it changes rather rapidly. Most cities are under permanent water restrictions, which include fitting water-saving flush systems to toilets.

The western toilets we're talking about are flushed with water, so this seems to be a non-issue.

Exactly, a western toilet will use about 4-5litres for a flush. To clean yourself with water will use a mug or two of water.

The people in this thread talking about the increased use of water, are quite literally talking out of their arse

Transporting water in pipes under pressure does not seem that expensive intuitively.

And the water spent growing the trees?

True.

Many things are becoming more and more homogenous globally - but I found that weddings, funerals, and indeed toilets appear to be somewhat resistant to that creeping homogenisation.

Many regions don't really use toilet paper, such as Iran, parts of Indonesia, etc. Personally, I like to have it handy, though in case of emergency pages from a Lufthansa flight plan work (try that with an iPad... (and yes, flight plans were printed and freely distributed decades ago)).

More importantly though, many many regions provide an opportunity to wash with water, either via a separate bidet, or built into the toilet ("washlet", as famously in Japan), or with a hose (bidet shower) next to the toilet. A revelation.

If you think about it, using only dry toilet paper is really rather primitive and disgusting. When I build a house, it'll have a German washing machine and dryer (maybe Korean), and a Japanese toilet.

Sometimes I wish there was a website where immigrants could list things that are far superior in their country of origin than the one they immigrated to. It’d be very useful for other immigrants so they can temper expectations before committing to such drastic change. Other than toilet practices & the taste of chicken, there’s so many areas where the third world is light years ahead of america. Often I have to fight the urge to lecture my pampered american kid on how much better it was back in india even though i was dirt poor when growing up there.

What else do you miss?

Shutki mach. Mangoes. People having kids and families living together.

Shukti match is long gone. Now dolfin match rules :) Kathi o ekhon onek kom thake.

Oh sorry you were talking about Shutki fish.

Yes: https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&source=web&cd=&ved=2ahUKEwjw...

Having just recently returned from Kolkata, India ... I agree the chicken tastes so much different, and better.

The bananas too ! No comparison to the bananas in the US.

What else suffers in comparison? The fruit?

Mangos are better.

But fruit that doesn’t come in a wrapper, due to the water exposure and things can be somewhat dubious quality at times. (By wrapper I mean a skin that’s removable).

Potatoes and eggplant generally tasted the same to me, as did carrots.

Jackfruit is much better in India too.

Interesting note about the chicken, and this is anecdotal, but I’m pretty sure the chickens are a different bread then what we consume in the US. The bones always seemed thicker with less meat. (Which I believe is a chicken that’s been less bread for consumption )

They almost certainly are a different breed; there are a bunch of chicken breeds indigenous to India. The are Indian chickens bred for egg-laying and those for meat. Also, the age of the chicken when slaughtered is a pretty big factor in how much flavor it has, as is the diet, which is probably the major reason supermarket CAFO chicken is flavorless.

Obviously, another problem America has with chicken is its addiction to chicken breast, which is really tricky to do well.

Can I just point out that this is a pretty weird combination of topics for a thread?

To understand why the US breeds are different to other countries, have a read of:

https://www.nationalgeographic.com/environment/future-of-foo...

It describes a competition to breed large breasted chickens in the US, post WW2. The downside to that larger breasts is a decrease in flavour.

Another factor is that the fancy chicken just wasn’t a thing 30 years ago, at least in suburban VA where I was. Either I’ve gotten used to it, or Whole Foods chicken is markedly better. (I even enjoy a nice pan fried chicken breast these days.)

I imported a Toto Washlet from Japan for this very reason. When you get literal shit on your hands, do you wipe it, or wash it? Why is your ass different?

I'll tell you the difference since you asked; If you wanted to eat a hamburger, and i handed it to you with my hand.. you would eat it...

I really hope i don't need to finish that thought for you.

I swear this is where the saying 'Don't know your arse from your elbow' comes from.

depends on which country this is and with which hand. the left hand, i would probably take offence, despite being left handed myself.

IIRC I read somewhere that in some places people use the right hand to wash their bums, open doors, shake hands, and other dirtier stuff. Left hand is used when needing tottouch food and other cleaner things.

The other way around :)

Oh dear..

So the left hand is for dirty work, and the right hand for clean?

But why do we shake hands with the right hand then? I guess there could be some "social respect" reason, but from a germs-and-stuff point of view it seems nonsensical?

The right hand is your weapon hand. So by offering it, you are stating that you do not intend to fight.

That makes no sense. Don’t you use your hands to scrub back there when you shower in the morning? If soap is good enough for that, why is it not enough for post toilet hand cleaning?

Edit; i just wanted to point out that i was answering the question whats the difference between your hand and your heiny not how to keep good hygiene for either. so with that in mind;

let me just, ahem, pass you a hamburger...

> Why is your ass different?

I don't go around touching people with it, or eating food; it's enclosed in fabric. That same fabric also makes it harder to fully air dry, which can be uncomfortable.

If I got shit on my hands I would do significantly more than spray it with a bidet.

American chicken taste like that because it's raised in a cage, fed nutritionless corn, and bred for sheer size. It's not worth eating.

A stand-alone bidet which can be used to wash with soap and water is indeed much better than toiler paper when it comes to hygiene and to be honest also comfort. But it has to be liquid soap and running water, otherwise you're just growing E. coli, especially if it's some sort of shared bathroom.

Nevertheless, bidets are unavailable in (I would say) most households and definitely unavailable when not using the toilet at home. Furthermore, it's rather inconvenient to use it every time after going to the bathroom because one has to pretty much take off their pants and underwear in order to have proper access. Their only advantage is that they are still more convenient than showering.

The Japanese water toilets don't seem like such a great idea to me, for the same reason that properly washing ones hands after using the bathroom requires thoroughly rubbing them together for some time with soap, not just rinsing them with water: using just water doesn't work. Spraying pressured water will help with cleaning, but also spread fine particles of crap everywhere.

Toilet paper may not be as efficient as a bidet, maybe less efficient than using just water, but it still works and using those Japanse toilets or a bidet is really not the mind-blowing revolution that it's made to look like. As long as one cleans up after using the toilet, washes their hands properly and showers reasonably often, I don't see any advantage to all these contraptions. It's more of a squeamishness or comfort thing. And there's always wet wipes.

> In Bangladesh, you rinse with water and soap after doing your business.

The only use of toilet paper in that case would be to dry yourself off after.

Seriously. Especially camping, where the choices are: carry around TP and then some used TP, or, just use water.

According to the book "How to shit in the woods", the most environmentally friendly thing to do when camping is to collect your poop and take it with you. So you can take your TP with you also.

There are places where you have to pack out your poop, like the Grand Canyon, but many places have nice composting toilets. Mount Rainier has some lovely places to take a shit. In any case there is still no advantage to bringing TP.

I sure hope you're not suggesting that you wash your poop into a river or other natural body of water.

Does a bidet really clean you?

Did you buy one in the states?

Yes, it’s a nice high pressure jet of warm water. At least in Tokyo, toilet paper is also provided, and you can double check by wiping after. They’re definitely going in when we redo the bathrooms in our house.

This misrepresents it, at least in my disappointing experience. The jet is nowhere near powerful enough to spray off poop. You are going to be getting most of it with your fingers and the jet just helps wash it away.

I found it to work pretty well, the the only use for toilet paper being to dry off quickly. The jet spray power can often be varied. For health reasons, it is usually set to quite soft though (Washlet Syndrome).

I’ve got a BioBidet (that’s the brand name) and never once has it not fully gotten everything off. There’s a lot of varieties of bidets, you were just using a less automated style most likely.

The trick, at least for the hose based system, is to put your finger in front of the stream to increase pressure.

Sounds like a gigantic mess.

> getting most of it with your fingers

Please tell me you don't mean this like it appears you do...

Absolutely... cleaner than TP will ever get you! Usually, a 30-second blast is all it takes.

$35 on Amazon. Worth every penny!

30 seconds seems long enough that it has passed from business to pleasure by the end.

I started using integrated bidet after the last move within US last year. The previous owners had that installed. It is great! Don't think you need to use wipes after.

Oh. I just googled "bidet".

I thought it is "integrated" in a Japanese toilet? Or do you mean this additional "installation"?

Search for bidet seat. Pretty fancy thing. Heats up too.

I am now frustrated whenever I have to use paper.

> I am now frustrated whenever I have to use paper.

I so strongly agree. It’s funny how I used paper much of my life, but now find it so disgusting.

The brand I bought is a BioBidet. Watch for sales on Amazon, I got mine for ~$200 as a lightning deal a while back (usually $350-500).

It is integrated in a washlet/electronic bidet/japanese toilet, but in Europe, you still commonly see bidets as separate ceramic bowls.

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