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Comment by kabwj | Hacker News Reader

This is a shame because vacuuming is probably one of the best and cheapest ways of harvesting olives which doesn’t involve importing illegal Romanians for cheap labour. (I say this as someone with interests in the sector and with no love for nature :P)

Having to give up on all of these machines will be very expensive.

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And this attitude is why we are in the mess we are today.

Presumably your interest is financial. Even if you can’t see beyond your own wealth, then perhaps you can recognise that our reliance on nature — including olives — is a balance. Crass exploitation with no regard for our impact on the world is short sighted to say the least.

Yup, it’s called the Tragedy of the Commons... and we only get to realize the financial impact of the loss after the irreparable damage is done

The irony is that the machines probably avoid a bigger human cost

But it should be possible to use them while avoiding harm to birds.

Considering Romania and Spain are both in the EU, there's nothing "illegal" about "importing" them. EU citizens enjoy freedom of movement across all member states.

Illegal because they don’t have contracts and are paid below minimum wage.

Then maybe you should attach the “illegal” to the employment, and not to the people.

People also aren’t “imported”. They aren’t cattle.

People easily can be imported. I understand what you're trying to say, and having empathy for everyone is important, but it's also a easily possible to understand illegal immigration as a concept and still care about people. Illegal immigration does have negative impacts on the local population that need to be addressed, and shouldn't be ignored in an attempt to act like all forms of labor are equal.

What are you talking about ?

The issue was specifically around the EU where citizens are allowed to work in other member countries. It's not illegal and by any definition it's not imported.

Of course they are imported... they come to Spain just to harvest olives and then leave. I’d call that “imported labour”.

They are called "seasonal workers".

And they aren't imported because they choose when and where to go. For example they are choosing not to go to the UK because of Brexit concerns.

The guidelines of this site specify that I should address the strongest interpretation of the argument. I felt the underlying message of empathy was more important than the semantics of illegal immigration versus legal. At least in America, the colloquial use of the phrase illegal immigration almost always discusses economic integration in a manner that exploits existing labor laws, which is what I believed the commenter above was speaking of. Again, squabbling over semantics is unimportant and uninteresting in my opinion.

If the work is illegal then why not complain about your greedy compatriots that don't use legal contracts and pay the taxes? I am sure that the government can do a few checks and find the illegal workers if this is not happening the problem is again with your country government and local corruption.

If the work is legal but you are upset that this workers work on the cheap then do not use the word illegal.

What indicated to you that I don't complain about the employers as well?

It's not illegal to work for a job without a contract. That's ridiculous.

And if it's below minimum wage then that this is a problem for that particular company. It's not illegal for people to work below the minimum wage if offered.

You're right, technically it's not illegal, it's impossible: a verbal agreement is still a contract.

That said, I'd bet my wages those workers aren't declaring their income to the appropriate tax authorities, which is very much illegal.

Maybe we just need to come up with a better solution. Might be enough to not use the machines when the birds sleep, or to add a light or buzzer so the birds can get away or something. A hefty fine for killing birds would probably help to get creative solutions faster.

The lights and "buzzers" seem to be part of the problem, rather than a solution, according to the article:

> The loud noise and dazzling illumination of the lights is thought to disorientate the birds, who are unable to escape and end up being sucked into the machines in large numbers.

If loud noises will start _before_ machines turn on vacuum, at least few minutes, then, maybe, it could help.

You'd think that the noise of the neighboring tree being vacuumed would be enough for the birds close by to flee, but apparently it's not? So something more deliberate is needed?

Yes, agree.

That was my first thought too when I read this article - why throw the baby out with the bath water by banning the machines which are seemingly pretty efficient at what they do? Some naïve thoughts here on more clever approaches that you haven’t mentioned are some sort of noise machines that deter the birds from roosting in the fields. At risk of driving the birds away, could provide a dedicated roosting place for them instead and use some sort of incentive (maybe sound again?) to get them to roost there instead of the olive fields.

There’s a lot of innovation to be had here and as you said a financial incentive would be more than enough to get the farmers to cook up these kind of schemes.

> Maybe we just need to come up with a better solution.

A solution to what? There's not problem besides "how do i make more money out of this"

> add a light or buzzer

I doubt these machines are silent already.

The article mentions this. They're loud and have bright lights. The problem is these disorient the birds, and they struggle to escape in time. Not really surprising, if someone woke me up at 3am with an industrial hoover and a foglight I would probably panic too.

They are loud, approach slow, have bright lights, there are loud people talking and working around... and the birds keep sleeping and do not try to escape or avoid the area? Seems unlikely

I can't eval the problem with this data and never had heard of it before. Nor had seen any remains of birds in almazaras but my experience in this case is limited. Maybe is a true problem locally and is good to care for it... something does not fit in this narrative. Maybe the migrating birds are just too tired to escape?.

I would look for some hidden interests. The history is very strange.

In any case just put a red light in the extreme of the vacuum tube, and you'll have a cheap and pretty simple solution. Birds will avoid the tube if they can see it coming closer.

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