People feel and express gratitude in multiple ways.
They can apply it to the past (retrieving positive
memories and being thankful for elements of
childhood or past blessings), the present (not
taking good fortune for granted as it comes), and
the future (maintaining a hopeful and optimistic
attitude).
Also here are the ways to cultivate gratitude per that same link:
Write a thank-you note.
Thank someone mentally.
Keep a gratitude journal.
Count your blessings.
Pray.
Meditate.
Personally in my mind appreciation is a matter of fact straightforward activity of ongoing enjoyment (of activities, things, events, people, etc.). Gratitude is not even close to that as illustrated above ... one I find little to no value in exemplifying (as there are superior ways of experiencing life such as appreciating being alive having a cup of coffee on a sunny terrace!).
> I honestly don't see how appreciating and returning kindness could be objectionable
Where did I write that they are objectionable? I said that gratitude is ineffective when you could be going straight to the root cause of resentment and dislodging it from your life.
> Thank someone mentally.
> Keep a gratitude journal.
> Count your blessings.
> Pray.
> Meditate.
I don't really see the first two things as being specifically spiritual, and I don't see it as much of a stretch to see that they can help with mental well-being. The third one is somewhat recursive, so I obviously can't argue that it isn't specific to gratitude.
The next two definitely feel spiritual, but I feel like they could pretty easily be expressed with "appreciation" and still be spiritual, e.g. "appreciate your blessings" or "appreciate the presence of god".
I'll be honest and say that from my naive understanding of meditation, I don't exactly know how it falls into the "gratitude" bucket. If I were asked to describe what "meditation" is in the spiritual sense, I definitely would have been more like to use the word "appreciation" than "gratitude", e.g. "appreciate one's place in the universe", so I don't really know enough to understand the distinction here.
Overall, to me, this list seems to be a mix of things that are overtly or mostly spiritual and things that don't seem particularly spiritual to me. Maybe it's just my lack of knowledge about this sort of topic, but I'm still not seeing any huge distinction between the two terms based off of those quotes. I definitely agree that from them, the course definitely seems to have a spiritual bent, but the word "gratitude" at least to me doesn't have anything to do with it.
> Where did I write that they are objectionable?
Fair enough; I may have been inferring a tone that wasn't present. It just strikes me as a bit odd that you feel so strongly about the differences between gratitude and appreciation when they don't seem that different to me (and from reading other comments, others seem to share this confusion).
That's most likely the case. From my experience with talking to people on this topic I've noticed that anytime I point out the shortcomings of meditation and the like, people--no matter how intelligent they are--tend to get very offended and then proceed to respond to me in anger without even realizing that they are feeling anything but good. (The very fact that this otherwise reasonable thread has been flagged to death is a testament to that).
> I'll be honest and say that from my naive understanding of meditation [...]
If you do your research beyond the watering down of eastern spirituality to fit the western secular mind (which is not, actually, secular) then you may very well see that there is in fact no connection whatsoever between gratitude (i.e., writing thank-you notes, thanking someone mentally, keeping a gratitude journal, counting on one's blessings, praying, meditation) and enjoying and appreciating this moment of being alive while say drinking a delicious cup of coffee on a sunny terrace, as the former is designed specifically to attain a specific emotional state to counter, and keep at bay, the feelings like resentment.
I think that meditation might be better viewed as a practical tool that assists in doing what you are suggesting. The idea would be that meditation trains you to focus on the present, objective reality which would in turn make you more likely to appreciate a cup of coffee. My understanding is that at least in the Buddhist tradition that is the stated purpose of the basic breathing meditation that most people are familiar with.
Thats not to say that it might not be an ineffective tool, but I don't think its necessarily contrary to the approach that you are talking about.
Could you explain more about how you would approach things as opposed to gratitude? I think I'm understanding now what you are getting at, but I'm not sure I'm understanding the practical steps that you are advocating as an alternative to meditation.
People invested their time and effort in this course. The least you can do is be grateful that there are such people on the planet who care about the wellbeing of others.
This is the same kind of thing that's used to promote anti-vax campaigns and scam people out of thousands of dollars for fake medical treatments.
Incorrect. Gratitude, along with other meditative practices, is a spiritual notion.
> You fabricated that
Fabricated what exactly? Quote the exact words I wrote.
> then complained when you were downvoted for being obtuse,
If what I wrote was obtuse, the intelligent response is to ask for clarification instead of emotionally lashing out onto me with downvotes, sarcasm and projections.
> and you keep complaining about lack of intelligent discourse
Indeed. Just for one example, where is intelligent discourse in your comment? Do you have anything to say directly in response to what I actually wrote? Instead you are just trying in vain to intuit what "stance" I take.
> while ignorantly hammering at a point that doesn't exist here.
What point is it that I am "ignorantly hammering"?
Edit: I had to warn you about this just two days ago. If you keep doing it we are going to have to ban you, so please review the site guidelines and don't do it again.
I'm not going to compromise on my principles, so go ahead and ban me (I see that you have already put a posting limit on my account).
'Only I can truly appreciate your suffering and your needs, and so only I can lead you.'
How about that?
To appreciate can mean to understand or recognize. Art appreciation doesn't quite mean gratitude towards art, as far as I can see.
Consider, 'I am grateful for the grace of God' or 'I am grateful that fate has spared us'.
Then try, 'I appreciate the grace of God' or 'I appreciate that fate has spared us'.
Appreciate sounds almost haughty and egocentric in comparison.
If I appreciate my food the focus can still be on me, maybe I can even relish how my oh-so sophisticated palate is able to extract wonders from the food, indeed how amazingly I'm able to appreciate the overall art of cuisine (or anything else).
If I am 'grateful' for the food, such a stance seems difficult. It's hard or silly to think of oneself as excelling in gratitude. Of course it can be done (and is always annoying to witness) but it seems harder to keep up as it's more obviously self-contradicting than garden-variety egotism.
So it seems that 'gratitude' suggests a more measured relationship between object and subject, and does a better job encouraging humility.
Except of course for the connecting of appreciation and egocentrism.
I can appreciate eating a delicious croissant, for example, savouring its buttery flavours as experienced on the tongue without egotistically thinking of "my" oh-so sophisticated palate. Moreover the word "appreciation" does not necessarily imply selfish thinking of any such sort.
Of course gratitude is not taught in such "mundane" contexts of sensately enjoying eating a croissant. It is always about some "higher" things like God or your childhood hurt memories or "food" (as nourishment rather than sensory pleasure).
And humility is a core part of gratitude. Yet humility exists to counter pride (one can't help but be proud of being humble.). Humility and pride are two sides of the same coin, and appreciation has got nothing necessarily to do with either of them.
Sure, they may have some benefits, but they're essentially just placebo effect. There has to be more interesting science on the topic than that...
You're throwing the baby out with the bathwater just because some "out there" people also like it. You might as well stop eating healthy because Acai berries are hip.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mindfulness#Scientific_researc...
"A meta-analysis on meditation research published in JAMA in 2014,[167] (that included a combined total of 3515 participants), found insufficient evidence of any effect of meditation programs on positive mood, attention, substance use, eating habits, sleep, and weight."
While there may be other with differing results it's... pretty sketchy in any case. I would hardly say scientific enough to belong in such a class.
I had a look at this when I considered meditation once but found it'd most likely just be a waste of my time. I'd rather not flush my time down the toilet.
In my understanding, meditation simply enables one to develop a heightened form of emotional detachment that may help deal with life's vicissitudes. Of course, that's again treating the symptoms and does nothing to cure the unhappiness.
You also cherry picked the negative paragraph for some reason, despite the above paragraph on the Wikipedia article citing a newer meta study with other positive results.
I'm not disagreeing with you about that depression and anxiety thing, but it seems a bit of a stretch to suggest it to a generally mentally healthy person.
Again, just to stress it out - the scientific aspect is not much relevant. From the science department I only care about it not doing harm.
https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamainternalmedicine/fullar...
"We found low evidence of no effect or insufficient evidence of any effect of meditation programs on positive mood, attention, substance use, eating habits, sleep, and weight."
As for "destruction of other cultures" - well, people use the same excuses to say that homeopathy is great and crystal healing will cure your cancer. It's a non-sense argument. This has no cultural bearing at all, just a rejection of bullshit. I have no interest in blindly approving things without analysis just because they came from other cultures. Study them. The results here are sketchy at best.
It can be, but it doesn't have to be.
'Traditional Chinese Medicine' is effectively bogus, or what we would call 'placebo'. It's not 'racist' to point that out. Chinese Emperor's in the 19th century knew that and banned it, Mao knew it as well (he had a Western doctor for himself) but re-introduced TCM after the civil war because it's the only medicine he could afford. And 'it does work' (i.e. placebo) for quite a number of things.
But 'mindfulness' crosses reasonably into the domain of legit psychological and mental well being and frankly it's not rocket science to start to conceive how 'clearing one's mind', and 'being in the moment' as opposed to living in constant anxiety can be an issue in one's mental well being, just as an example.
So yes, it's soft, and susceptible to a lot of hocus pocus and probably some 'believers and hypers' etc., but that doesn't in and of itself abnegate the real opportunities from it.
A good book to go down a scientific path is "Why Zebras don't get ulcers" by Dr Robert Sapolsky. Dr Sapolsky is professor of biology, and professor of neurology and neurological sciences at Stanford.
His book helped me understand the physical effects on my health caused by my stressful company work environment. In short - our primate bodies have a fight or flight response to stress resulting in spikes in blood cortisol, muscle tension, gastrointestinal changes etc.
Once you understand how mind affects the body then it becomes possible to see how breathing and relaxation (mindfulness/meditation) can undo the effects of stress that we battle in our daily lives.
Of course there are other ways towards well-being. I found the tips in 'Getting Things Done' very useful in reducing anxiety. Switching to 'Eat food, mostly plants' advice is helping in mood and energy levels.