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Comment by t1o5 | Hacker News Reader

Not surprising at all. Canada had "money for citizenship scheme" and these are the side effects. Québec has and is still playing a major role in this scheme with their provincial scheme called QIIP. Once the rich "investor" gets a permanent residence through QIIP, they move to BC for the better climate. Some QIIP PR holders has never even set foot in Québec according to the immigration dept of Québec . Condos in downtown Montreal are paid for in cash by foreign students who drive expensive cars.

CBC News reported this sometime back :

https://youtu.be/NIq1nMWRIG4

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And the QIIP scheme involves a mere loan to Quebec, which is fully repaid to the immigrant after five years. WTF.

Looks like it’s a $1.2 million, 5 year interest-free loan to the government of Quebec, not quite a ‘mere’ loan.

Yes, it's not easy to say goodbye to 1.2 million for 5 years. The outrage over it seems racially motivated to me. It's not like white millionaires haven't bought their way into the country before this.

I thought to myself, "that can't be right". And no, it seems like it's actually crazier[1], but see caveats[2]. You need $1.3M (USD) in minimum net worth:

> In order to be admitted into the Quebec Investor Program 2018, foreign investors must have a legally obtained minimum net worth of CAD $1.6 million (or its equivalent in a foreign currency), either individually or combined with their spouse or partner. Assets that may be included when calculating net worth include real estate, bank accounts, stocks and bonds, as well as pension funds. Under the Quebec program for investors, inherited assets are classified as legally obtained, however, donation or inheritance money must have been received at least six months prior to launching a QIIP application. As of January 2018, $1.6 million Canadian dollars is equivalent to approximately USD 1.3 million,

So, wait, what about the loan then? You only need $800k CAD (~$600k USD):

> Applicants for Canada investor immigration must sign an agreement stating their intention to make a government guaranteed CAD $800,000 investment in Quebec through a financial intermediary authorized to participate in the QIIP. This prescribed investment in a five-year term note is fully and unconditionally guaranteed by the Government of Quebec, and in accordance with the provisions of the program, the money is returned in full after five years with 0% interest.

But wait, maybe you don't want to have to sell all your assets to make that loan to Canada? What if someone else with money to spare could give Canada the money on your behalf? I mean, it's clear you can pay, right (since you're a millionaire), and the loan is guaranteed by the Canadian government. The only thing that would be missing is the interest one would make on the loan normally, so, what if…

> Over the last decade, a significant percentage of the Quebec and Canada Immigrant Investor Program participants have financed their investment in the country. Investors who do not wish to liquidate assets in order to come up with the required C$800,000 can finance the investment through an authorized Canadian financial intermediary for a one-time loan payment of ~$220,000 CAD, which includes all interest and fees. This means that as of January 2018, the "true cost" of obtaining a Canada investor visa is only around 175,000 American dollars,

Now, there are a few more gotchas (you have to intend to settle in Quebec, you must "have acquired at least two years of full-time business management experience in the past five years", …).

But, wow.

[1]: http://www.investorimmigrationcanada.com/

[2]: http://www.immigration-quebec.gouv.qc.ca/en/immigrate-settle... seems like a more official site. They list the number as $2M CAD ($1.5M USD) in net worth and $1.2M CAD investment (~$900k USD). But it does seem to confirm "financing". So, the theory seems sound, but there's perhaps some haggling over price. /s … sorta.

According to the Canadian charter of mobility rights, once you are granted a permanent residency, you can live in any province of your choice. So this intend to settle in Québec doesn't hold. That's why many of them have never even set foot in Québec though they had to sign an agreement to settle in Québec.

Are there any additional benefits beyond residency that the QIIP grants, that could be reneged upon if you violate the intent of the contract?

Perhaps, could they say that if you stay in Quebec, your money is just a loan, but if you don’t, it’s a permanent payment—making the entry fee almost more of a “deposit” attached to a Letter of Intent?

Why are you shocked? Is it too high or too low in your estimation?

The US has a similar program (EB5). The investor invests $500k over some period of time and gets back the money. In practice they spend $50k-$100k on a green card plus the opportunity cost of the $500k.

the EB5 investment isn't backed by the government though, so a lot riskier than the loan for Quebec investor visa. Additionally, as the parent comment mentioned, one could finance the investment and therefore really only pay ~175k out of pocket.

Doesnt sound that bad. USA too has this scheme. Hungary had it too. Loads of countries have it, if not all

Just curious what reasons why anyone would not want this? This brings money and taxes to the local economy.

Yeah, why wouldn't you want your economy built on fraud? I hear Venezuela is doing real well.

Check out this article on Malta doing a pay-for-EU citizenship scheme:

"Critics charge that the program undermines the concept of European citizenship, potentially poses security risks and provides a possible backdoor for Russians seeking to escape sanctions against their own country."

From personal observation: Benefits are tangible and immediate to the city and its politicians from increased taxes and whatever bribes are paid, downsides are intangible and long-term to the city residents who get priced out of their homes, lose business because these "residents" don't actually live in the city, and have to live with sometimes-unpleasant citizenship tourists that are often involved in fraud of one sort or another.

https://www.politico.eu/article/malta-cash-for-passports-pro...

Sources and exact numbers from the immigration dept of Quebec as per Access to Information. ( In French )

http://www.midi.gouv.qc.ca/publications/fr/ministere/acces-i...

Had a friend who did this and then moved to BC. My friend lived in Quebec for most of his childhood but left during teenage years. Not sure about this stereotype about "rich foreign students driving expensive cars", because I think that is only some and not all, but people only notice the few people with rich cars. It's a free world, who cares about rich students buying expensive cars.

What I think people don't understand is that only the rich and intelligent come in through this way. You need at least $1M in the bank to even be considered.

I get that it selects for rich people, but how does it select for intelligent people?

It doesn't. No intelligence or English/French language tests needed for QIIP.

Canada (except Québec) has a merit based immigration system called Express Entry for skilled individuals.

Québec's called Québec skilled worker programme. Despite its name, Quebec's system is not based on merit but first come first serve, paper based, slow (4+ years) and unpredictable.

I just went through the Canadian immigration process. It's been a few months but I recall reading about visas.

IIRC, the "Investor Visa" was about $400k CAD to be invested in Canada or something.

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