Hacker News Reader

It's all true, but to protect yourself from all that, you're going to have to keep your data away from Apple as well (i.e no iCloud drive/photos/calendar/mail, etc)

Not running algorithms for ad targeting doesn't make the data any more secure. Only end-to-end encryption does.

This has always seemed pretty straightforward to me, so I simply don't store things that need to stay private on other people's machines. If I want to keep it private then I keep it to myself, and that's that. If I put it out into the world, I assume it's out there to be seen, and it doesn't really matter what privacy guarantees people claim to make today because policies may always change tomorrow.

I do make one exception to this, in that I have a long-standing business arrangement with a company that manages my mail and web server, but I am paying them for a specific service which they have been completely reliable about providing, so I feel generally comfortable with that.

I feel badly for people who haven't had the advantage of growing up with all this stuff and are therefore having to learn these lessons the hard way. Lots of painful experiences out there.

I have a feeling such privacy-conscious decisions will eventually have consequences, akin to the social-ranking systems from that episode of Black Mirror, or in China[0], where in both instances various forms of punishment are dealt to those not contributing "positive" data to the cloud.

It seems like there aren't very many people who really care about privacy... and they would be easy to single out and punish.

On that note, enjoy your semblance of privacy now... while you still can!

[0]: https://www.businessinsider.de/video-china-train-warns-citiz...

This has always seemed pretty straightforward to me, so I simply don't store things that need to stay private on other people's machines

But what's the definition of "other peoples' machines?"

If you run Windows 10, it's not really your machine. You don't have full control over it, do you? It updates and reboots when Microsoft tells it to, not when you tell it to.

If you use a smartphone, that's not your machine, either. If you can't read and write every byte of storage from the baseband processor to the video chipset, but the company who sold you the phone can, then that means it's their machine, and not yours.

If you use a Linux box or a Mac, I hope you never plug an Ethernet cable into it, because that effectively turns your machine into a dumb terminal on a system that isn't yours, just as the Oracle (Corporation) foretold.

"Keeping it to yourself" gets a little less practical every year, it seems.

Yeah, it's a challenge, all right. No, I don't use Windows - not at all. I'm aware of the issues with baseband processors, and therefore make very limited use of phones; I know that basically everything I do is, or could be, snooped on. I try to manage the risk of using the phone as a communication device by using Signal, but I understand it's not a panacea. I'm currently using a BlackBerry KeyOne, because I really like the keyboard, and because they actually seem to put some effort into device security. Every little bit helps, eh?

My devices all connect to a wifi router at home that I bought and configured myself, which bridges to my ISP's modem. Has it been hacked...? Well, I hope not. I do the best I can. My laptops have all been ThinkPads running Linux, for years. I love the maintainability, and the fact that I can turn off wifi with a physical switch is a nice bonus. I'd like to try out a Purism laptop someday, if I can ever afford it.

I take comfort in the fact that nobody really cares what I am doing and I am not worth the effort of a focused attack. If I ever got involved in politics or activism, I might manage my risks differently. It is frustrating for me that the world continues to drift further away from the way I'd prefer it to be, in this arena, but my desires are extreme, so I suppose that's to be expected.

I thought that stuff was all encrypted, and Apple couldn't see it?

It is encrypted (except email) but Apple has the keys for the stuff I listed: https://support.apple.com/en-gb/HT202303

Also, in China Apple handed over iCloud operations to a government owned company, including the keys.

I don’t see Apple having access to keys there. Could you point it out? CTRL+F for “key” came up with 7 results but nothing to suggest Apple holds them and can decrypt. Apologies.

There's a section about half way down that lists all end-to-end encrypted data (keychain, health, payment data, ...).

By implication, all other data is not end-to-end encrypted. That includes iCloud drive, photos, calendar, contacts and mail.

Also one big deal is how Apple handles key distribution. They absolutely could MitM that connection to get access to the user's keychain and the UI doesn't really give the user any feasible way to detect that Apple has added their own key instead of just the key for your other device that Apple doesn't control. It's "end to end encrypted" but if you just handwave away key distribution and leave that up to Apple, what's the point other than a marketing gimmick?

Are we reading the same support article? https://support.apple.com/en-gb/HT202303

Specifically listed as encrypted in transit and on server:

- iCloud Drive

- Photos

- Calendar

- Contacts

Only mail is not according to this support article.

Edit: I see the omission now. These things are not listed under the end-to-end section.

Yes, exactly, so that data is encrypted on the server using a key that is in Apple's possession.

It _is_ encrypted, Apple cannot see it. The parent comment is mistaken

I'm afraid you are mistaken: https://support.apple.com/en-gb/HT202303

Reading that article, the confusion is easy to explain and looks intentional.

It reads "For certain sensitive information, Apple uses end-to-end encryption. This means that only you can access your information" and then immediate shows a giant table of data that is NOT end-to-end encrypted, but not labelled as such -- it's only inferrable by its omissions from the next section of the document.

I agree. It doesn't look like Apple was particularly keen on letting people know that they can actually read most data that people consider private.

>Apple cannot see it.

How can you be sure? End to end encryption is not a guarantee when you're inputting your key into a closed source client to store and retrieve the data.

Especially given that key distribution is totally up to Apple and the end user has no practical way to verify that the key for "My iMac" is really the same key that's actually used by your iMac.

Yea, it's interesting how many comments are flat out wrong

or can't seem to differentiate between what Google does now ...vs what might happen with Apple in the future.

If you think that I am flat out wrong then please provide evidence. In this particular case it is you and Dig1t who are flat out wrong if you claim that Apple cannot see the iCloud data I specifically listed.

Also, I didn't say anything about what Apple might or might not do in the future. I made a distinction between worries about ad targeting and security issues that come with storing data in the cloud without end-to-end encryption.

Maybe they'll lower your rates by figuring out how often you're ill. Similarly with life insurance. Or they might not change.

Maybe someone will try to blackmail you and your congressman husband, but both of you will just shrug, because no one cares at all about nudes. Not even you, after a few more decades of information wanting to be free and becoming free and public.

Maybe it's better that you didn't get those jobs and you find something else. With all the extra data out there, maybe there'll be a service that'll match you up with doing something you really want to do that fulfills your soul instead of sucks it.

Why do you suppose that with more information election manipulation will be one-sided in favor of certain manipulators over other manipulators or even suppressors? I'm told FB does a great job suppressing all kinds of data from spreading, I don't imagine they'll get worse at it. We also have all the other manipulators manipulating in exactly the opposite direction as any particular manipulator you want to call out. Seems like a wash.

Your concerns all boil down to big maybes about mildly increased financial burden and people increasing their sensitivity to private info being exposed despite decades of trends implying the opposite. In the hands of a Caesar, this isn't the power to reshape the Earth at all, especially when it's never going to be in the hands of one entity.

That's a whole lot a Maybe that's drastically at odds with millenia of human nature and human history.

drastically at odds with Corporate nature and Corporate history.

>this isn't the power to reshape the Earth at all

Then why are there so many tech companies obsessed with "changing the world"?

None of your rebuttal did anything to negate the fact that big data can be and is used as a weapon the likes of which the world has never seen before.

These would be big problem, but even worse is that you wouldn't know if they know.

Like getting ghosted after a job interview. You will have _no idea_ what caused the rejection. Or, as to your examples, you will have no idea if and/or why you're getting charged more.

> > but 100 years will anyone care that you had the flu on May 7 2019

> My future health care provider might. Maybe they’ll spike rates by figuring out how often I’m ill using this data.

You seem to be perhaps a little too optimistic about your life expectancy.

A charitable reading would be the coming decades.

If I’m truly lucky, it could be a century. It’s something I try to work for. I have 2X chromosomes, am nominally healthy with CR and replicating the best anti-aging treatments of our time (retinoids for skin, exercise, nicotinamide riboside etc). Barring the unforeseen, my genes and efforts will probably lead to an extremely long healthy life span.

I wasn’t really making a criticism, just a light-hearted joke. I had to do a double take when I read that part of the response. Best of luck to living past 100, if you do I am sure I will be long gone.

I hope not :(

From your HN comments, it feels like the world would be a poorer and darker place without you in it. People like you make a life worth living and a long one worth striving for. If we all take care of our health (with a little chemical help along the way) maybe we’ll all get to see what’s next together? :)

Thanks for the kind words. My family history a pretty high risk of stroke, heart attacks, cancer, etc. but I would be open to defying the odds, if that’s going to happen.

Modern interventions like nicotinamide riboside and caloric restriction have evidence behind them and work. There are communities dedicated to this. There’s an entire world of people (and quacks) out there who can help along with your doctor. It’s worth a shot.

also a lot of work done by sens organization on age related illness and plans to reverse much of it assuming they get funding.