Hacker News Reader

Comment by Agent766 | Hacker News Reader

The problem that I see is that the child had no choice in the matter. Imagine if you turned 21 and were kicked out of the country that you grew up in and had to move to a country that you haven't been to since you were a baby. I don't really know what a reasonable solution to this might look like.

View on HN

Making choices that cast long shadows on their children’s lives is basically the job description of parents.

It's not about the parent (which is not a job by the way). We are talking about actual people turning 21 and having no choice but to leave the country where they spend their whole life based on the situation of a different person. I personally have difficulty thinking of a more unfair situation.

Note that the USA is pretty exceptional in this regard. Most countries don't ask for people to be permanent resident before being able to apply for naturalization and children of immigrant having lived their whole life in a country can just apply for and be granted citizenship.

If it helps, you're arguing a different point than I am. I agree the rules are bad, the child should be able to stay. However, the parents don't get to lay the entire blame on the government/laws, because they knew going into the situation what was going to happen. They _chose_ to set things up so their child would be sent back to a country it didn't know.

This situation is pretty normal. If my parents moved to Japan for work and their visa is up, my visa is up too. It’s probably the same if they had worked in India as foreigners.

> If my parents moved to Japan for work and their visa is up, my visa is up too

That's not the problem here though, It's more like your parents moved to Japan for work, stayed there, and when you turned 21 you were kicked out of the country and they get to stay.

That's true, but I think the point was that it's more like your parents knew how long the backlog was, moved somewhere, had a child, failed to do that simple arithmetic (aka hyperbolic discounting; when a thing is so far in the future that we fail to take it into account), and then you didn't get to stay once you were too old.

Exactly. If I move to France on a temporary work visa with my 10 kids, they don't automatically get to stay indefinitely or get granted citizenship somehow just because their parent has a work visa. They have no French parent and weren't born there so their rights as visitors are limited.

Everytime these discussions come up there are all these articles and pundits passionately advocating for the US to have extremely wide open immigration rules that are not observed by any other country in the world, and they claim racism if it doesn't happen the way they want. This constant race-baiting they do is racist in itself.

> Exactly. If I move to France on a temporary work visa with my 10 kids, they don't automatically get to stay indefinitely or get granted citizenship somehow just because their parent has a work visa.

That's a very poor example you have chosen.

The children of foreigners granted a titre de séjour (the maximum duration of a visa in France is one year) as family members of a person working in France:

- are allowed to work in France ;

- are entitled to titre de séjour allowing them to stay for 10 years provided they apply before their 19th birthday and have lived for three years in France.

Considering you can apply for French citizenship after having lived five years in France or after completing a three years degree in a France, unless he is in France for a very short stay, the 10 kids of your hypothetical immigrant are pretty much guaranteed to become French if they want to.

Are you talking about people with temporary non-immigrant visas, or highly skilled immigrants?

https://www.expatica.com/fr/employment/employment-law/work-i...

> After 18 months in a long-stay residence permit marked ‘employee’ or ‘temporary worker’, you may apply to bring your family to France. Spouses (partners are excluded) and minor children can apply for a one-year ‘visitor’ visa (without being able to work during this time), and must sign the CAI.

This policy is very different than that for the 2016 "Talent Passport" permit, which allows the immediate family to migrate immediately and obtain work permits. It seems you are talking about that visa?

The US also has green cards for migrants that allow one to bring their whole family, stay indefinitely, have the family work, and all apply for citizenship after a time. These are fundamentally different visa classes than temporary non-immigrant work visas like the H1B. Unlike France, the US does not require the worker to wait 18 months before bringing their family on the H-4 family visa, they can come right away. Also, the spouse can work, unlike in France according to the above link. So the US policy is much more progressive.

How about the reverse? You move to France, have a kid that's a French citizen and when the child is 18, you are kicked out but they are allowed to stay.

Unlike the US, France does not have birthright citizenship so unless you or your spouse are a French national, your children born in France are not French citizens. If you live there legally long enough though you can apply for citizenship. Same as for permanent legal residents of the US who have lived here long enough.

A little technicality: persons born in France are automatically granted French citizenship at 18, providing that they are living in France at 18, and have lived in France for at least 5 years previously. These criteria tend to change a lot as this is a rather sensitive topic in France. Also sometimes an application is necessary, sometimes not.

An odd case: if both parents are foreigners, but one of them is born in France, then their children will automatically become French at birth (if born in France).

Then there are special rules for Algeria, as it was a part of France until 1962...

My point is that I've lived here long enough (in 4 years, I'd have lived here longer than I lived in my home country) and I still have to wait an indefinite amount of time to become a permanent resident. I've been here 17 years and I'm still a 'temporary' worker. 15 years in the industry, >$500k/yr compensation and I've oversee a budget of $5 million.

If you're born here, you're an American citizen. Cold comfort, I know, but they can come back.

Reply on news.ycombinator.com