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Comment by bryanrasmussen | Hacker News Reader

EU law (because the EU seems to be the only one willing to make these big laws inconveniencing tech) - any IOT enabled product that has the IOT capabilities removed by closing of a service without a simple way for those capabilities to be re-enabled (simple being further clarified in law) can be returned for a full purchase refund up to 3 months after closing of the service.

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IIRC there is a law where you can return items for a full refund or exchange if the product was "not fit for purpose", which includes shenanigans like these.

There is a law you can return anything brought online without giving any reason for 14 days, I don't think there is a law which applies here?

At least in the UK there are the concepts of "fit for purpose" (and of merchantable quality) and "reasonable expected life". Now I doubt there's yet been much chance to evolve what a reasonable life of a smart thermostat or associated devices are, but crucially liability is with the retailer. It's on them to prove they are not liable. If they then want to chase the manufacturer, that's separate. It probably pays not to buy direct from manufacturer.

A retailer can be busy ducking all their legal obligations and telling you that you're long past the window of refund, but mention the provisions of the Sale of Goods Act and you usually get a very different response, or a manager is called over (to authorise the inevitable refund). The Sale of Goods Act is still law (Well, parts of it), and the newer EU Consumer Rights Act is in force as well. Good job too, the Sale of Goods Act is stronger in several areas, whilst the EU gave us 2 year warranty.

There is case law where things have been judged to be within reasonable expected life, and a repair, refund or compensation ordered long after the mandatory warranty ran out.

UK has had the basic "fit for purpose" since the 1979 Sale of Goods Act.

The UK has the "fit for purpose" clause in the Distance Selling Act and I think you can return the product at any time. I'd highly encourage anyone who is inconvenienced by this to exercise such laws.

You still have to strip your thermostats off the wall. The best is still to not buy any device that is meant to last more than 5y that relies on a service.

how about something like - if the product needs to be uninstalled to be returned the company needs to provide for uninstalling the product from the purchasers location and shipped back to the company, with full payment of shipment and uninstallation provided by the company.

You say that as if it's hard to remove.

There are a lot of people who are going to own nest devices that they had professionally installed, as many of these purchases push for using an on-site technician service to install for you (try buying any of the smart thermostats on Amazon, they all have an option for professional installation).

It can be hard especially if you don't have a replacement just lying around.

I'm sure I'm missing something, but in the past when I've replaced thermostats it's pretty easy. Easy to find a replacement and easy to do the work. I know that everyone has different levels of skill here but this is less involved than, say, replacing an outlet.

A replacement compatible with the heating that may have been installed 10 years ago by a company that went out of business and from a manufacturer that also went out of business.

Some of the EU customer protections are really top notch. God knows we can't just trust the tech companies to not be manipulative pieces of shit. "Don't be evil" - my ass.

I'm interested in reading more about this, could someone provide more information on this law?

It's basically derived from the requirement that product works as advertised + legal guarantee that the product remain working as advertised.

https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/HTML/?uri=CEL...

It's not a law, bryan is suggesting it.

I tried finding information on this, but couldn't. Could you provide links?

sorry, I thought I was clear in suggesting it as a law - although realistically in a lot of EU countries you could make the case and get it returned.

For example I'm in Denmark and we have a consumer ombudsmand were you can make complaints about violations of your rights as a consumer https://www.consumerombudsman.dk/about-us/ (it talks about marketing but I the Nest was marketed to have functionality it no longer has), in fact there may already be sort of an Ombudsmand ruling that pertains here https://www.consumerombudsman.dk/media/46530/2016-memorandum... which says you can return something after your normal right of return but you are liable for diminished value - so you would not get the full refund in this case but something.

Of course I think that an actual complaint on this subject would result in a memorandum that you can get your full refund.

Update - I had an opportunity to ask someone who definitely knows exactly what the rules are in Denmark and they said that if Google refused to refund you would have to take them to court but they are also certain that any eventual legal process would find Google liable for refunding as long as the Nest was ever marketed for its now no longer functioning capabilities.

You should probably throw the word "Proposal" in your original post somewhere. It's not clear.

looks like edit window is gone

This law would end up hurting the upstarts. Alternatives should be made and the consumer should be picking winners with their dollar.

The problem is you’ve voted with your dollar already. You’ve looked at the market and selected the one that meets your needs. Then the maker changes what you’ve purchased.

Yeah, it would end up hurting the upstarts, but the lack of this law hurts customers and hurts business on the long term because consumer trust evaporates.

Or, they could build it in a way where it can be modified (for self hosting for example) in the first place.

that's what I meant with simple to change, basically.

Not aware of such a law but there's a related European IOT project: http://big-iot.eu

BIG IoT is a European project to enable IoT Ecosystems. With our technologies, we enable cross- standard, cross-platform, and cross-domain IoT services and applications. We are embedded in the European IoT Platforms Initiative: https://iot-epi.eu

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