Comment by rfwhyte | Hacker News Reader

Comment by rfwhyte | Hacker News Reader

As someone who loathes the pretense, attitudes, and money-grubbing of so called "Fine-dining" I've long dreamed of the emergence of canteen style dining in the western world. Where I live, every new restaurant is more expensive than the last, with average entrees easily topping $20 in mid-market establishments, and $30+ being incredibly common. Prices are so astronomically high, as establishments are now primarily competing on "experience," meaning they're spending huge sums on fancy architecture and furnishings, drastically increasing their cost bases. Since they spent so much just to get the place up and running, you're subjected to constant up/cross selling, ludicrously overpriced drinks, and the pervasive sense that if you can't afford to eat there without caring how much you're spending, you don't really "belong" there.

I would love for nothing more than a basic, no-frills establishment that serves simple, healthy food, counter-service style so I don't have to deal with uppity yet somehow obsequious servers grubbing for tips, as I'm more than happy to bring my own damn food to my own damn table and am more than capable of filling a water glass when I'm thirsty. I'd much rather save money, enjoy my meal in peace and put my dishes in a bin on my way out than deal with the conspicuous consumption as a performance that so much of dining out has become these days.

I'm not going to defend the industry or "fine dining" in general, and I think what you are asking for is fine.

However, you seem to have a real misconception about the industry ("money-grubbing", etc.). Margins in the restaurant business outside of fast-food are generally really low, and in the actual fine dining segment, even worse (3% would not be unusual there. Go ahead, try running a business successfully at that sort of rate). You are right, they are competing on "experience" but that is because it is what most people seem to respond to - and it is very expensive to deliver that experience. Besides, if not experience - what - convenience? That's where fast-food comes in.

To me personally the middle of the market, particularly the non fast-food chains are the worst trade-off, though I understand why some people love them. I'd much rather play $35 for an entree that was amazing and I have no idea how to make, than $18 for one I could have done a better job of at home for $5... but I'm a good cook and a lot of people aren't or don't have the time.

There are a lot of things not to like about the way it works (many entrees are a loss, margin made up on drinks/desert, servers ludicrously underpaid which pushes their reliance on tips, back of house just ludicrously underpaid, etc.).

I totally get why you might want to avoid the entire thing (and also why others wouldn't) and wish there was more available in the segment you prefer. It's worth remembering though, that to a first approximation nobody is getting rich doing this - most places struggle at best. There are also a ton of people in the industry that really believe (rightly or wrongly) in food and its ability to provide you with experiences you can't easily (or at all) replicate other ways.

I want good food when I go out. I get offending when I spend $20/person on a meal and think I could have done better at home myself for $5/person. Many of those meals are not better than what McDonalds serves for $4/person, which is a low bar (you shouldn't have trouble beating McDonald's in both taste or nutrition but few places do).

You’re assuming prices would need to remain high.

The food is often secondary. Sometimes I want to sit in nice surroundings with interesting people and know that someone else is going to think about presenting me with good food I might not have thought to try myself, and a staff exhibiting a high degree of professionalism will bring it to me. Often, that place is in a location with high rent (for the restaurant, and the staffs' landlords), so it's not cheap.

Sometimes I want pizza and beer, and that can be 100% as good, too. Usually cheaper if only because it's more efficient, though.

With a normal developer salary in Bay Area (assuming ~$100/h), your claim is equivalent to a statement, that you'd be able to make that meal for 4 people in 12 minutes. And I assume that's just your time to prepare it, not including ingredients, cleanup, and equipment maintenance and replacement.

You are making a number of unrealistic assumptions: I'm paid hourly, that my boss has approved me to work overtime, and that I would actually be working instead of the time used to prepare a meal.

Working hourly is a reasonable thing, though in my case I'm not. The other two are completely unrealistic. Working my job for that extra hour or two just leads to burnout.

When I'm at home preparing a meal my family is there, sometimes helping (watching your 5 year old cut something for the first time with a knife is a scary moment you don't want to miss), sometimes singing in the next room. Either way I make far more than $100/h when I make a meal for my family even though the only money exchanged is what I pay for groceries.

It does not matter if you are paid hourly. Many people here can choose exactly how long they work for the same salary.

Your second point is, basically, that you like the work (on meal prep). But that is completely besides that point.

The way you should look at this is: would you agree to serve meals for $12 for a neighboor's family of 4? And I bet the answer is no, you would not.

This is about me and my meals though. My family is getting ripped off when I spend a sum of money on food that isn't very good. I've spent $40/person for meals that were as good as I could make at home in an hour, even though I'd be saving money doing the work myself it was still wroth it because I didn't feel like cooking.

If my neighbors decide that the meals they can buy are good enough that is their choice. I won't enforce "my good taste" on them. I find the value is not there.

All I was saying, is that you can not claim, that they are trying to rip you off just because you like to cook at home.

Pine Street Market in Portland is a lot like what you envision. In typically Portland fashion it is a little on the fancy side and priced somewhere between fast food and pub fare but still reasonable in my book. Food cart culture in PDX somewhat emulates canteen style dining too.

http://www.pinestreetpdx.com/

The Parts Unknown Nashville episode also had a good look at cafeteria style dining that you may enjoy.

https://explorepartsunknown.com/nashville/when-all-you-need-...

I personally would love such an establishment in my small city.

Generically known as a “food hall.” Basically an upscale food court.

Chicago version:

https://www.revivalfoodhall.com/

Raleigh version:

http://www.morganfoodhall.com/

And a bunch more:

https://www.thedailymeal.com/eat/50-best-food-halls-america-...

A lot of indie cafes are kind of like this. Example from my city:

https://www.cafepyrus.com/

https://www.google.com/search?q=cafe+pyrus+kitchener&tbm=isc...

Healthy, inexpensive food. Order at the counter, they bring it to you when it's ready. Bus your own table when you're done. Extremely basic decor, but they're a community spot, with fairly frequent mini-concerts, a monthly poetry slam, etc.

That isn't a canteen. Like the article says, the closest thing we have in the US is the Ikea food court. You collect various foods on a tray and pay at the end. It's more customizable than restaurants where you order a main entree. Canteens have variety, apps/mains/sides/desserts, that you can pick at will, and are semi-self service.

Canteens (stolavaya) are alive and well in Russia, and were my favorite places to eat because of the variety and thrift.

Here's how one is arranged: https://i.ytimg.com/vi/Ml0F97OZu6k/maxresdefault.jpg

Here's what your tray might look like at the end: https://media-cdn.tripadvisor.com/media/photo-s/0c/46/f7/cc/...

You might be surprised at how close you can get to that experience at a nicer grocery store/coop (most larger Whole Foods are this way, for instance). The salads and sandwiches can be put into a plastic container or just on a plate and there’s seating (my favorite grocery store even has outlets).

That looks like a cafeteria style restaurant. We have lots of those. e.g. Boston Market:

https://www.prlog.org/10985847-wwwbostonmarketcom.jpg

Or the inside of most any Whole Foods or other upscale grocer.

A food court is different. There are a bunch of vendors surrounding a common eating area. Sadly because it’s America, it’s the same 10 fast food or fast food like vendors in every food court, mostly. You might see more variety in an airport.

Kind of like Picadilly's Restaurant?

https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-IYKR9N0VneA/UZ96KquXbYI/AAAAAAAAD...

https://s3-media2.fl.yelpcdn.com/bphoto/b3jONzG2-_wI804mxVBX...

This is one of the few things Baltimore does well! We have many food 'markets' that are essentially small stalls run by independent businesses with common seating areas, tray returns, limited bussing, and open seating.

https://r.housebaltimore.com/ has become extremely popular, and several markets are being renovated with a similar approach. The prices vary somewhat depending on the type of stall, but in general they are within a fast-food price-range, not a restaurant.

I'm not sure where you're located, but Dig Inn (https://www.diginn.com) started in New York and looks to be spreading in Boston and while not necessarily a $5 lunch, seems to fulfill most of your criteria. It may not offer as large a selection as traditional canteens, and is very bowl-focused (who isn't in 2019?) but I thought it a pleasant enough experience.

Isn’t what you’re describing is a food court? Like the ones they havr in malls?

The whole foods hot bar is where it's at. Nice atmosphere and decent food. Although of course it can be kind of pricey depending on how much you eat.

Some colleges will allow non-students to buy individual meals, or even meal plans, at their dining halls which are usually as you describe.

Mall food courts also have a similar experience.

In my experience, ~85-95% of mall food court food is terrible.

Unless you work next to the food court, and take the time to figure out what's good, your average stop at one will result in disappointment.

that was one thing that astonished me when I visited Bangkok - the mall food courts were truly excellent. nowhere else have I eaten so many meals so happily in a food court.

The food courts in the malls in Flushing, NY are also truly excellent - amazing, authentic Chinese food as well as some other East Asian cuisine. There are probably other ethnic enclaves around the US with good food courts.

Aside from healthy (that is going to vary) it sounds like what you're describing could be what is called "fast casual" in the US.

Come to New Zealand! The NZ bakery/cafe[teria]/"tea rooms" is what you describe; grab a tray and a couple of small plates and go down the side of the establishment to self-serve from the hot cabinets with (savoury) pies, sausage rolls, chicken drumsticks and chips (fries); many pre-made sandwiches; and various cakes and sweets. Most have a menu with a few simple made-to-order things as well, e.g. toasted sandwiches. Generally cheap, reasonable quality and a staple of all walks of life over lunch.

What counts as the "western world" ?

I know of at least one chain [1] in Europe that matches your description.

[1] https://www.flunch.fr/

There are these mom and pop shops, they make a pasta a dish, or biscuits, or whatever. They are cheap yet tasty, and popular. Obviously the margins are thin, but the owners don't have huge ambitions, aren't trying to expand, get a new big house, etc, they just make food and by doing so make a living and provide for their family...and the people respond. These mom and pop stores become the fixtures of the community. They server the community. Those are the best places.

I really wish we had Singapore-style hawker centers in the US. I'm not sure the economics could work here, though.

I was wondering if anyone would mention these -- they're the best! We sought out the hawker centres, which have a huge variety of amazing foods. The same format was easy to find in Penang as well. You can eat delicious local food with the locals at great prices, and there is more than enough volume and competition to force low quality players out.

Where do you live? We have plenty of those types of counter-service places in Boston, FWIW

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