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Comment by ha470 | Hacker News Reader

Having lived in both India and China for some time, I can assure you that the scale and magnitude is completely different.

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I agree. The corruption in china is more explicit. While the corruption in the US goes through more official channels. It's harder to perceive in the united states. I would argue the net effect is similar though: The more money you have the more influence you have.

When someone says "the scale and magnitude is completely different," they aren't referring to "explicit."

I know plenty of people from China who have talked about the crazy levels of corruption there. Some are related to those in power, and they've said it very much goes through 'official channels.'

That's what I mean. From another angle, the corruption is the same it's just more visible in China. People in general know about the corruption in China. How obvious is the corruption in america? Not obvious at all it's sort of ephermal.

How corrupt was dick cheney?

You know about his corruption. You are able to say bad things about a man who reportedly had a "kill squad" online, without ending up "missing" or being"re-educated", and you think the levels of corruption are the same in China and the US?

... seriously?

/Edit: America isn't perfect, I'll give whoever that. But the defeatist equivalence shit has to stop. We are working on it. We won't stop working on it. We can always do better. Pick up a shovel and help, rather than "lol we're as bad as {place} because {thing}."

People don’t seem to understand this difference you highlight. They could try going to China and saying the same things publicly.... _then_ they’d realize how different the two places are.

Freedom of speech is a little overrated. You don't have freedom of speech in the real world anyway. You watch what you say because what you say can affect your environment and you. It's not injustice that you can't talk publicly about how horrible your boss is, it's common sense.

China is just an extension of this from what you normally do to tip toe around your boss to the government. Yes it's bad, yes it's a negative. And Yes it's at a whole different level than America.

However, Does it prevent you from living a happy life in China? Does it prevent you from becoming rich and powerful? Does it prevent you from talking shit about the government with your friends? Does it prevent you from pursuing the equivalent of the American Dream in China? No it doesn't. China has problems just as America does but to think that you're living under total oppression is an exaggeration at best.

Take a look at this: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2236746/Road-built-... An elderly couple refuses to move and the government bends to their will. Would an evil despotic controlling government allow this to happen? Would you imagine this kind of behavior being allowed in North Korea? Yes there is no talking shit about the big boss in China, but you need to open your eyes, it's nowhere near as bad as you think. This is not stalinist russia.

Definitely if your job and your intentions are against the will of the government you're gonna have a hard time. But for most people they'll be fine.

However the topic at hand is corruption. Not freedoms. If you were talking about freedoms, than yes, America is more free. My argument is China and the United States are equally corrupt.

You say:

> it's nowhere near as bad as you think > However, Does it prevent you from living a happy life in China? Does it prevent you from becoming rich and powerful? Does it prevent you from talking shit about the government with your friends? Does it prevent you from pursuing the equivalent of the American Dream in China? No it doesn't. > This is not stalinist russia

This is an extremely naive and ridiculous belief. Depending upon your definition of "happy life", if that involves having to suck up and follow orders given by the government, then sure go ahead. But don't pretend as if China and every other socialist/communist country will let average joes be happy. They have re-education camps for people who don't follow, camps for certain religions, a social credit system blocking millions from traveling/renting and what not.

Not fighting back when things are starting to get worse is exactly how things exaggerate to the point of no return. I would recommend you watch a documentary on how Stalin came to power and how things got worse. Look at Venezuela now vs 20 years ago and you have proof.

I lived in China. I lived in China and the United States. I know the reality. Naivety is the person who watches documentaries and experiences the world second hand.

I'm assuming you haven't been to China otherwise you wouldn't be saying these things.

I won't disclose my location here on HN but I have lived in 2 countries (one western and other asian) and I know the contrast. Simple things like porn being banned is enough to prove my point. I have had several AirBnb guests at my place from China who describe the system. But their description came across as "frog in the well".

You cannot claim the following are anywhere close to how things are in US. Or will you claim these are all fake propaganda being spread by western countries? It's almost ironic that defending China's practices yet China doesn't even allow Google and most social media sites in the country without a VPN. If this stuff happens in US, media would be having a field day:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xinjiang_re-education_camps

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/aug/07/china-bans-win...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1989_Tiananmen_Square_protests

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_Credit_System

https://www.npr.org/2019/05/07/720608802/reporters-notebook-...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pornography_in_China

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Websites_blocked_in_mainland_C...

Also, we are not supposed to engage in political debates on HN so I am going to stop here.

I just assume the people who are saying they're the same are either 1) Russian trolls or 2) very naive. There aren't really any other options.

Then why isn't Dick Cheney arrested? It's known in a vague sense, not in a more definitive sense like it's known in China. In China it's like we all know.

In the US things like Dark Money and bribery and lobbying and monopolies are all a sort of an ephermal fact rather than a fact of life like it is in China.

My argument is underneath all that the US and China are the same in terms of the volume of corruption.

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